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HP Forum Archive 17

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Newer HP 17BII+ with double-width Input/Enter key?
Message #1 Posted by bt_schmidt on 20 Aug 2007, 3:20 p.m.

Hi,

My original Aug 5 2007 posting included an image of a newer HP 17BII+ with a double-width Input/Enter key, as served off of the OfficeDepot.com website.

Unfortunately Office Depot has reverted the image to that of a standard, gold & black HP 17BII+. So anyone reading that original thread will be confused as rather than side-by-side comparison images, they now see side-by-side images of the identical, gold & black, HP 17BII+.

I'm assuming that OfficeDepot had 'jumped the gun' when they posted an image of the newer HP 17BII+ with the double-width Enter key before HP had announced the calculator. Thanks to the Curator hosting the original image, here it is again. I know I will be in line to buy one when HP officially releases it.

...bt

      
Re: Newer HP 17BII+ with double-width Input/Enter key?
Message #2 Posted by Bruce Bergman on 20 Aug 2007, 4:21 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by bt_schmidt

Has anyone seen this model mentioned, referred to, alluded to or otherwise potentially existing in any location OTHER than Office Depot?

I'm wondering when this might materialize.

thanks, bruce

            
Re: Newer HP 17BII+ with double-width Input/Enter key?
Message #3 Posted by bink on 21 Aug 2007, 2:03 a.m.,
in response to message #2 by Bruce Bergman

FWIW, I saw the new version at Angus & Robertson on George St in Sydney, Australia about a month ago!!!

      
Double-width Input/Enter key? Why input? Why not ENTER?
Message #4 Posted by Gene Wright on 20 Aug 2007, 4:48 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by bt_schmidt

Here's a good question for the group...

Can anyone make a good case for this key saying INPUT?

It certainly comes from the past link to the original HP 17B, but that probably dates from some previous HP marketing person trying to break from HP's RPN heritage.

So, a vote...

PLEASE PUT IN THE SUBJECT OF YOUR REPLY...

ENTER

or

INPUT

for the Enter/Input key on the 17b.

Gene

P.S. This is purely a poll for fun. I ain't got nothing for you.

            
Enter
Message #5 Posted by Vincze on 20 Aug 2007, 5:17 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Gene Wright

I would not buy one unless it match quality of Pioneer series 17BII. I saw cheapo 17bii+, and it look like joke. I don't think you ever see a business person be proud to pull that put at meeting.

            
Neither...
Message #6 Posted by Thomas Okken on 20 Aug 2007, 5:23 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Gene Wright

How about SAVE instead? :-)

Edited: 20 Aug 2007, 5:24 p.m.

                  
So that's an ENTER vote?
Message #7 Posted by Gene Wright on 20 Aug 2007, 5:40 p.m.,
in response to message #6 by Thomas Okken

Don't confuse things. :-) Be good to see a long list of ENTER or INPUT.

                        
Re: So that's an ENTER vote?
Message #8 Posted by Egan Ford on 20 Aug 2007, 6:04 p.m.,
in response to message #7 by Gene Wright

ENTER should only be ENTER. This has nothing to do with legacy or RPN, just common sense. Look at any PC, it is an ENTER key, not an INPUT key, it is convention. (Well my Apple ][+ did have a RETURN key and so does my kids MacBook (but ENTER is printed above RETURN)). I think the argument still stands. ENTER.

                        
OK, "ENTER", then...
Message #9 Posted by Thomas Okken on 20 Aug 2007, 10:14 p.m.,
in response to message #7 by Gene Wright

But only if it has an upward-pointing arrow next to it.
HP-25 Forever. :-D
(The HP-25 just happens to be my first HP, and I got it when I was 12 years old (thanks Dad!!!). That's an impressionable age... So there.)

Edited: 20 Aug 2007, 10:19 p.m.

                  
Re: Neither...
Message #10 Posted by Walter B on 20 Aug 2007, 6:31 p.m.,
in response to message #6 by Thomas Okken

I second Thomas, SAVE is the only appropriate key print for a business calc :)

                        
ENTER
Message #11 Posted by Vincze on 20 Aug 2007, 7:43 p.m.,
in response to message #10 by Walter B

Güten nacht my friend Walter. [SmartA$$Mode] Why not dummy it up and make it say OK. :) [/SmartA$$Mode]

Why you say Save? Was that not only one calculator that have that? If we say save, why not commit? That at least more liking computer term as you must commit SQL statements. My only concern is if we have commit or save, Mr Gates would get in picture and and say to have popup box that say "Are you sure you wish to save? Yes, No". And then after that, it say "Are you really, really sure?" ;)

Personally, I think it should say Belép, which mean Enter in Hungarian. :)

I never understand why 17BII have INPUT. That not make sense to me. Input where you put food in baby.

            
Re: Double-width Input/Enter key? Why input? Why not ENTER?
Message #12 Posted by Bruce Bergman on 20 Aug 2007, 6:50 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Gene Wright

ENTER

            
Re: Double-width Input/Enter key? Why input? Why not ENTER?
Message #13 Posted by Peter A. Gebhardt on 20 Aug 2007, 7:19 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Gene Wright

Pls. keep INPUT - it's better to avoid redesigning the manual!

Instead HP should invest into the SW so that L() & G() would be working properly again ....

Best regards

Peter A. Gebhardt

                  
fix the solver please
Message #14 Posted by Don Shepherd on 20 Aug 2007, 7:42 p.m.,
in response to message #13 by Peter A. Gebhardt

Here here!

                  
Definitely ENTER
Message #15 Posted by Bruce Bergman on 21 Aug 2007, 1:05 p.m.,
in response to message #13 by Peter A. Gebhardt

I agree about getting L() and G() working -- no question! I think all of us that use, and are fond of, the 17bii+ want that fixed.

But why would you want to keep INPUT the same just to not fix the manual? I mean, the manual is the EASIEST thing to change. It's a matter of someone going through a document and doing a search and replace (in the simplest case) or slightly more. There's probably some proofreading too, but that also pales in comparison to other changes.

The result would be *another* appealing calc for HP fans and users alike. It would also make it more consistent with the rest of the current HP offerings. Even the HP-12C has an ENTER key...

thanks, bruce

            
INPUT
Message #16 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 20 Aug 2007, 7:49 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Gene Wright

My first HP calc was a 20S. I had no clue about RPN (besides a little Forth) until I *accidently* bought the 32SII. So, INPUT just reminds me on having had a great time in France, where I bought it ;-).

But...the HP-80 SAVE also looks great. I'm tempted to vote for it.

Has anyone mentioned that the new housing looks like that from the 35s? Can we expect the same great keyboard?

                  
Re: INPUT
Message #17 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 21 Aug 2007, 12:25 a.m.,
in response to message #16 by Thomas Radtke

> Has anyone mentioned that the new housing looks like that from the 35s?
>
Yes, when I saw the first photo sme weeks ago;-)

The display and upper right corner keys are different, too.

I still hope they make an HP-42S anniversary model.

Raymond

                        
Re: INPUT
Message #18 Posted by Thomas Radtke on 21 Aug 2007, 4:09 a.m.,
in response to message #17 by Raymond Del Tondo

...not to mention that a whole row of keys is missing :^).

I don't believe in a 41/42 successor. It will probably not be approved for the various exams and if it would, it could very well cannibalize the 35s.

                              
Re: INPUT
Message #19 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 21 Aug 2007, 4:30 a.m.,
in response to message #18 by Thomas Radtke

> ..not to mention that a whole row of keys is missing :^).
>
Now that you mention it...but that's compatible with the Pioneer series.
Actually the 35s has one additional row...

I fear they won't make a new 42S, but the hope is still there;-)

The programming model of the 35s is so limited in comparison to the 42S,
it just doesn't make fun to program the 35s IMHO.

It would also be a nice idea to have the 17bII+ in the new housing,
equipped with Flash updateable ROM, and black faceplate,
and a suitable SDK to built an own calculator.

Raymond

            
Rationale for ENTER, plus other changes (dreaming)
Message #20 Posted by Bruce Bergman on 21 Aug 2007, 1:14 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Gene Wright

The 17bii+ can output programs (solver equations) to the printer, so it's marginally better than the HP-35s in that sense! I like that it has a good combination of features and functions.

Putting the ENTER label back on would be useful because it would justify what you can already do. I.e., in RPN mode, you can use the INPUT key like an ENTER key. In RPN mode the stack operations are also the face functions of the parenthesis keys.

While we're at it, I'd like to see HP put some other basic math functions into the MATH menu. Right now it has LOG, 10^x, LN, EXP, N! and PI, which is great. But it has no SIN, COS, TAN, etc. If there were room in the ROM, it would seem to make sense to add those basic math functions.

There are solver equations that provide those functions, but it's not the same. There are even DEG->RAD solver equations. But it would be so much easier to have them in the ROM.

Also, I notice there is no yellow shifted function under STO. What about putting some functions under there? How about base conversions, or some simple conversions? Heck, if we're dreaming, I'd LOVE to see the E+ (sigma+) key back on the face of the calc, and if it were there, you could use it to create SUM lists automatically. Man, NOW we'd be talking! :-)

thanks, bruce

                  
Re: Rationale for ENTER
Message #21 Posted by Jake Schwartz on 21 Aug 2007, 4:20 p.m.,
in response to message #20 by Bruce Bergman

Hi,

ENTER is to HP as the scroll wheel is to the iPod. It is their "bread and butter"...it is their trademark...it represents, as Gary Tenzer once put it, an expression of their unique "brand". Although the HP80 key said "SAVE", the HP70, HP22, HP27, and all business-oriented machines which used RPN had ENTER leading up to the hp12c in 1981. As I stare at Rick Furr's HP Calculator Poster (check it out at http://www.vcalc.net), it looks like "INPUT" first started with the HP18C in Summer of '86 and stayed on ALL algebraic-logic machines, business or scientific. When the 17BII and 19BII came out with the RPN or algebraic option, they left the wide key with "INPUT". Since the 18C, all HP business machines were exclusively algebraic (like the 10BII) or offered both logic options (like the 17BII+). With the exception of the 12C Platinum, those others all used INPUT. If the 35s represents HP's return to its roots, then I vote that they all say ENTER from now on, as long as they offer RPN as a logic option.

Jake Schwartz

                        
Re: Rationale for ENTER (ban all INPUT keys)
Message #22 Posted by Bruce Bergman on 21 Aug 2007, 4:24 p.m.,
in response to message #21 by Jake Schwartz

Hear, hear! A vote for no more INPUT anywhere!

Well said, Jake.

thanks, bruce

                  
Re: Rationale for ENTER, plus other changes (dreaming)
Message #23 Posted by Peter A. Gebhardt on 22 Aug 2007, 12:43 p.m.,
in response to message #20 by Bruce Bergman

Bruce,

may I add some more dreams?

Whats about:

- numerical integration & differentiation

- GAMMA distribution & GAMMA function for non-integers

- UTPN & other statistical relevant distributions

...

All of the above required, once you do some "serious" retirement or life-cycle planning.

Best regards

Peter A. Gebhardt

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