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HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #1 Posted by Egan Ford on 10 Apr 2007, 12:04 p.m.

http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/5323

Interesting comments, reads like this forum.

      
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #2 Posted by Frank Boehm on 10 Apr 2007, 3:48 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Egan Ford

Why would they want to release an anniversary edition of the 35? The functions are available on any modern calculator that costs more than 99 cents. That doesn't leave much profit for HP. I believe it when I see it ;)

            
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #3 Posted by Tim Wessman on 10 Apr 2007, 3:54 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by Frank Boehm

I would go out on a limb and say they are going to do one.

It will have the same shape and colors as the old unit, large enter key and so on, yet have lots more functionality. A true new calculator. :-)

TW

                  
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #4 Posted by GE on 10 Apr 2007, 4:12 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by Tim Wessman

I hope it has the same quality level as vintage models.
Homestly, I wouldn't mind a LED display !!
I'll leave space for the price on the check. Just send ASAP.

                  
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #5 Posted by Ron Ross on 10 Apr 2007, 4:36 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by Tim Wessman

Of course I'll buy one!

                  
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #6 Posted by John on 10 Apr 2007, 4:41 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by Tim Wessman

So HP is the mysterious force who has been buying up all the HP35 calculators on ebay.

Perhaps they are buying all of them up to polish them and clean them so they can sell them on the HP website!

                        
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #7 Posted by Dia C. Tran on 11 Apr 2007, 2:51 p.m.,
in response to message #6 by John

for much less money than the went on ebay???

      
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #8 Posted by Walter B on 10 Apr 2007, 4:52 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Egan Ford

Quote:
HP, in the next few months, will also debut a new calculator related to this anniversary, the spokeswoman said.
Can't imagine, but I'm willing to hope. However, it must be something revolutionary (like the HP35 was at its time), because the original function set you get for less than 10$ everywhere meanwhile.
            
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #9 Posted by Ren on 12 Apr 2007, 12:07 p.m.,
in response to message #8 by Walter B

I wouldn't be surprised (if a 35th Anniversary calc is released), that HP might just rebadge a 50 and call it the Anniversary Edition.

HP could justify such an action by saying something like...

"The HP-35 was the best calculator of its time, and now the HP50G is the best calculator of our time, so it is only 'appropriate' to have the HP50G represent its fore-runner."

Okay, so I'm a pessimist! But an Anniversary Edition would sell like hotcakes...

Ren

dona nobis pacem

                  
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #10 Posted by Howard Owen on 12 Apr 2007, 2:35 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Ren

Add a SysRPL HP-35 emulator and the cheap "special" would be complete.

I suspect that someone at HP (Sam?) might see how cheesy that would be.

I know it has been stated at least twice in this thread, but it bears repeating. There is no indication from HP that they will be releasing an HP-35 anniversary edition calculator of any description. No new calculator is still the most likely outcome in my opinion, but it's fun to speculate on what such a machine might look like.

Regards,
Howard

      
If True, As Close To "Bring Back The 15c" That's Been Wished For
Message #11 Posted by Happy HP User on 10 Apr 2007, 6:34 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Egan Ford

And they'll probably sell quite a few. I'll buy at least two.

            
C'mon be real folks
Message #12 Posted by John on 10 Apr 2007, 6:55 p.m.,
in response to message #11 by Happy HP User

You have the offhand words of a spokeswoman, aka marketing droid, and you guys are going off the deep end with them.

I think TWs comments are wishful thinking or pulling our legs.

I'll eat my HP35 if HP comes out with any sort of new LED model.

                  
I also note
Message #13 Posted by John on 10 Apr 2007, 7:01 p.m.,
in response to message #12 by John

that is was the blogger who suggested the parallel to the 12c anniversary.

Read the link carefully and you won't find that stated by the spokeswoman.

                        
Re: I also note
Message #14 Posted by Walter B on 11 Apr 2007, 2:02 a.m.,
in response to message #13 by John

John,

This was noted already above. For sake of clarity, once again, the only real (though only quoted) statement we have is:

Quote:
HP, in the next few months, will also debut a new calculator related to this anniversary, the spokeswoman said.
I think this is exciting enough. Speculation is what "a new calculator related to this anniversary" will mean. I agree it won't be LED.
                              
Re: I also note
Message #15 Posted by Howard Owen on 11 Apr 2007, 3:20 a.m.,
in response to message #14 by Walter B

That prospect is exciting.

If true, I sort of feel like HP will be in a no-win position with respect to this community's reaction. I've heard two mutually contradictory expectations from folks. To a degree, I hold both positions myself. This leaves me only a little "twitchy" due to the cognitive dissonance. (The rest of my madness is due to other factors. 8)

First, to be equal to the memory of the HP-35, a new calculator would have to be as revolutionary as the 35 was in its day. I'm not sure it's easy for those of us that didn't live through the transition to grasp just how impossible this expectation is. Jumping from the slide rule, with its long history stretching back to "Napier's Bones," its built in accuracy compromises and its slow operation, to an electronic calculator complete with most functions considered standard on a basic scientific/engineering machine today must have seemed like a very sudden leap into the future. There were no direct precedents for this product. There had been pocket calculators before, and desktop scientific calculators, but never a pocket sized scientific calculator.

Second, to satisfy me, and perhaps others in this community, a new machine honoring the HP-35 would have to bring back some of the features I hold dear in the old RPN models. The large ENTER key is an obvious one, but also the RPN logic system and excellent build quality. This expectation doesn't seem like much of a stretch compared to the first one. But how the heck do you satisfy both? Do I really want the machine to be both revolutionary and traditional? (*twitch*)

In order to resolve the dissonance, I think I'll let go of all expectations regarding this vaporous anniversary model 35. If HP does something to remember its former glory in the history of scientific and engineering practice, I'll be happy. If they honor the things that made the old machines so wonderful, I'll be delighted. If they transcend the handheld calculator with a device I can't even imagine, I will soar into the clouds with joy and wonder.

If they do all of the above, I'll go back to being "twitchy." 8)

Regards,
Howard

                                    
Re: I also note
Message #16 Posted by Dia C. Tran on 11 Apr 2007, 2:59 p.m.,
in response to message #15 by Howard Owen

I doubt that they would do it. I think it would be nice to make the 35 again with some what smaller form factor and with LCD display. It should have the highest contrast LCD and very high quality of construction and keyboard. It should be even tougher and have better ergonomic than the original 35. The keyboard should have the exact same 35 keys layout and with a sliding power switch and same color scheme. It would provide also exactly the same function as the original 35. Selling price for $150 and I would get one.

                                          
Re: I also note
Message #17 Posted by Howard Owen on 11 Apr 2007, 5:40 p.m.,
in response to message #16 by Dia C. Tran

Quote:
It would provide also exactly the same function as the original 35. Selling price for $150 and I would get one.

Me too. But that would be a machine purely for the enthusiast. An engineer or student in need of a basic scientific pocket calculator would look at that price and laugh.

The 12C Anniversary Edition was just a nicer looking model of a still successful business calculator. People in business schools and in the workplace obviously still buy those in large numbers, without regard to the historic value.

I see only two possibilities for a viable 35th anniversary HP-35. Either a low cost scientific model with styling and functions reminiscent of the original, or an entirely new calculator, perhaps called an HP-35, that does the washing and walks the dog, all with reference to the original, but not limited to the original's features. I'd prefer the latter, probably.

There I go being optimistic again. It's good for my nerves.

Regards,
Howard

                                          
Re: I also note
Message #18 Posted by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. on 11 Apr 2007, 9:34 p.m.,
in response to message #16 by Dia C. Tran

Quote:
It would provide also exactly the same function as the original 35.

After all these years do we really want to go back to an x^y key rather than the y^x key which was introduced with the HP-45 and used in all the subsequent H-P calculators?

                                                
Re: I also note
Message #19 Posted by John Smitherman on 11 Apr 2007, 10:47 p.m.,
in response to message #18 by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr.

My fear is that HP will commission Kinpo to produce a 35c Platinum with algebraic and RPN entry.

Regards,

John

                                                      
Re: I also note
Message #20 Posted by Tim Wessman on 11 Apr 2007, 11:22 p.m.,
in response to message #19 by John Smitherman

If so, I bet it will be pink and have sparkles. . . ;-)

TW

      
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #21 Posted by Dave Johnson on 12 Apr 2007, 3:17 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Egan Ford

What will be released:

An HP-50G with "35th Anniversary Edition" markings!

Enjoy!

      
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #22 Posted by Mike H on 12 Apr 2007, 4:55 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Egan Ford

May be we are getting closer...

HP calculators / RPN, An Introduction to Reverse Polish Notation 2007-03-23

"If you're a frequent calculator user, you owe it to yourself to investigate the advantages of RPN. RPN stands for Reverse Polish Notation. Reverse Polish Notation was developed in 1920 by Jan Lukasiewicz as a way to write a mathematical expression without using parentheses and brackets. Hewlett-Packard Co., realizing that Lukasiewicz's method was superior to standard algebraic(1) expressions when using calculators and computers, adapted RPN for its first hand-held scientific calculator, the HP35, in 1972."

Article can be found here: HP website

Mike H

            
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #23 Posted by Ron on 13 Apr 2007, 9:42 a.m.,
in response to message #22 by Mike H

How did you find that article? It was interesting, but I took a step back in the web address to see when it was published, and didn't see the article listed. So I took two steps back, chose US, and went forward to this page, which then has a link to the 35 anniversary article. But I still couldn't find the article you linked to.

Do you know when it was published?

                  
Online RPN (was HP-35 / 35th Anniversary )
Message #24 Posted by Mike H on 13 Apr 2007, 10:33 a.m.,
in response to message #23 by Ron

Hi Ron,

I found it (link) by by searching HP35. The article was dated March 23, 2007. The idea of a simple, inexpensive, non programable scientific RPN is an idea I like.

Mike

Edited: 13 Apr 2007, 10:34 a.m.

                        
Re: Online RPN (was HP-35 / 35th Anniversary )
Message #25 Posted by Dia C. Tran on 13 Apr 2007, 4:18 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Mike H

The calc was more RPL like than RPN. I didn't check it out carefully yet but it has the entry line and the top level stack doesn't duplicate.

                              
Re: Online RPN (was HP-35 / 35th Anniversary )
Message #26 Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 13 Apr 2007, 7:32 p.m.,
in response to message #25 by Dia C. Tran

Quote:
The calc was more RPL like than RPN. I didn't check it out carefully yet but it has the entry line and the top level stack doesn't duplicate.
Such things as replicating the top stack register downward may well be considered an essential part of the "Classic RPN" system used on some HP calculators, but aren't essential to RPN as a mathematical notation.

To me, if the basic rules of operation are first input the arguments, and then perform an operation on them, then the system is some variety of RPN.

Regards,
James

                              
Re: Online RPN (was HP-35 / 35th Anniversary )
Message #27 Posted by Howard Owen on 13 Apr 2007, 9:12 p.m.,
in response to message #25 by Dia C. Tran

The source code is all there in Javascript. Just "view source" (and grovel down through tons of stuff) to see it. While the stack levels are labeled "level 1" through "level 4", the source calls them X, Y, Z and T.

Regards
Howard

                        
Re: Online RPN (was HP-35 / 35th Anniversary )
Message #28 Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 13 Apr 2007, 7:12 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Mike H

I think that HP's article is inaccurate. My understanding is that Jan Lukasiewicz developed "Polish notation", that is, instead of using a mixture of prefix, infix, and postfix notation, with rules of precedence for determining in which order the operations are intended to be performed, uniformly using prefix notation. In Polish notation, the sequence would always be first the operator, and then the argument(s); for example, to add 1 and 2 in Polish notation, the sequence would be + 1 2.

Reverse Polish notation (RPN) of course reverses the position of the operator and arguments, making it postfix notation, that is, first the argument(s) and then the operator; for example, to add 1 and 2 in reverse Polish notation, the sequence is 1 2 +.

Regards,
James

Edited: 13 Apr 2007, 8:17 p.m.

            
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #29 Posted by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. on 13 Apr 2007, 6:08 p.m.,
in response to message #22 by Mike H

You quoted the article as saying

Quote:

"If you're a frequent calculator user, you owe it to yourself to investigate the advantages of RPN. RPN stands for Reverse Polish Notation. Reverse Polish Notation was developed in 1920 by Jan Lukasiewicz as a way to write a mathematical expression without using parentheses and brackets. Hewlett-Packard Co., realizing that Lukasiewicz's method was superior to standard algebraic(1) expressions when using calculators and computers, adapted RPN for its first hand-held scientific calculator, the HP35, in 1972."


But, if you go to www.woz.org/letters/general/57.html and read to the end you will find the following discussion by Wozniak, the co-inventor of the Apple computer and a former employee at HP:

"... At Hewlett Packard we were so proud that our calculators, the first scientific ones ever, were years ahead of competition. They used postfix partly because the least logic or ROM chips were quite expensive back then. It would have taken extra keys and an infix to postfix translator to use infix. Also, a larger and more expensive desktop HP machine from the division in Colorado Springs used postfix, for the same reasons. The HP-35 was an attempt to miniaturize this machine. ... "

That's the wonderful thing about history. It seldom tells us what really happened. More often it tells us what the historian would like us to believe. H-P, which doggedly continues to make RPN machines, even when machines with EOS (equation operating systems as on TI and Casio machines) or RPL (as on H-P machines) are clearly better when algebraic expressions are involved, can be expected to emphasize the claimed benefits of RPN to a user. Wozniak, who left H-P to develop the Apple product line which used a higher order language which is far more similar to AOS, EOS and RPL, can be expected to dismiss RPN as a language consistent with the memory limitations of the early 1970's.

The article's example calculation in algebraic mode emphasizes a need to remember an intermediate result. That is, of course, correct for the early machines which mimicked the operation of adding machines. It is not correct for any of the later algebraic machines which implement hierarchy. That's an attempt at salesmanship, I suppose. It will fall flat with any potential user who is familiar with the algebraic machines with hierarchy..

The article also offers an checkbook balancing exercise as a demonstration of the superiority of RPN. With RPN or with an adding machine one enters the last balance, enters a value and presses plus or minus depending on whether the value was a debit or a credit, and sees the result. With algebraic one enters the last balance, looks ahead to see whether the next entry is a debit or credit and enters a plus or minus depending on whether the next entry is a debit or credit, One then enteres the value, looks ahead again to select a plus or minus, and when the plus or minus is entered sees the result of the previous transaction. This means that at the end of the balancing exercise the RPN user will have used exactly one less keystroke. Of course, the "looking ahead" which the AOS user finds natural and appropriate in this case is similar in a sense to the "looking ahead to find a starting point" which the RPN user find natural and appropriate when solving complex algebraic expressions such as the famous Mach Number equation.

                  
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #30 Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 13 Apr 2007, 8:03 p.m.,
in response to message #29 by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr.

True, different versions of history are often available, depending on who's writing it and what they want the readers to believe at the time.

I expect that the real reason for using RPN in early models was at least as much to simplify and minimize the hardware requirements as for any virtues of RPN as a mathematical notation. RPN is great for "number-crunching", but to me, it would seem difficult to use for algebraic manipulations.

Yes, the advantage of saving keystrokes is often overstated.

For me, the advantage of RPN is mostly that it seems more intuitive to me and is much more consistent; first the argument(s), and then the operator.

A basic feature of RPN is that the result of any operation is left on the stack, available as an argument to a subsequent operation (assuming that it isn't "pushed out" of a "top register"). To me, this seems to make it ideal for "working through" a real-world problem where the data is available and one has to decide what to do with it, although a bit of a pain when one has an algebraic formula and the data to "plug in" to it.

Regards,
James

Edited: 13 Apr 2007, 8:07 p.m.

                        
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #31 Posted by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr.. on 14 Apr 2007, 8:10 p.m.,
in response to message #30 by James M. Prange (Michigan)

You wrote:

[quote] RPN is great for "number-crunching", but to me, it would seem difficult to use for algebraic manipulations. {/quote]

You may be correct on the "number crunching" idea, particularly if one does it step by step without the help of a program. The requirement for that sort of number-crunching was an inherent part of aerodynamics in the late 1940's when I was an undergraduate in aeronautical engineering, and was a part of my decision to do other kinds of engineering. By the time I encountered a need to do a lot of number crunching in the 1960's I had easy access to a computer network with an extended BASIC capability. I soon learned to reduce the number crunching to a program which made it palatable.

You were, of course, correct in Message #28 with your comment on the discussion of the origins of RPN.

In summary, I suggest that the H-P of the olden days wouldn't have let an article like that get into print. But, the emulator is kind of clever. The four line display speaks to one area of RPN that always has given me trouble, namely, how to keep track of what is in the stack without writing it down or doing endless roll-up's.

Palmer

                              
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #32 Posted by Bernie on 15 Apr 2007, 1:54 p.m.,
in response to message #31 by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr..

RPN in HP style really shines if keystroke errors are to be corrected. Combined with LAST X most of all possible errors can be quickly and efficiently undone. A great feature not found in AOL or similar systems. And, RPN forces people to think. Use of a HP calc by kids certainly does not spoil their understanding that multiply / divide goes before add / subtract. Unfortunately, the TI-30 dominated schools all around the globe and maybe all those kids now are dumber if they had had a HP instead.

                                    
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #33 Posted by John Smitherman on 15 Apr 2007, 11:19 p.m.,
in response to message #32 by Bernie

My guess is that if HP does anything at all to celebrate it will update the 33s with a few software corrections and give it a facelift changing the key shape and layout, label colors and body color. Will they rename it? Maybe they will call it the 35s. This is similar to how they reimaged the 49G+ into the 50G.

Regards,

John

                                          
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #34 Posted by Steve Borowsky on 16 Apr 2007, 4:58 a.m.,
in response to message #33 by John Smitherman

Well, if they make the 33S look like a 35 it would be a huge improvement. I don't think they're smart enough to do that though. The 33S was they're best shot at a decent, simple RPN calc and they ruined it with that sick perverted design. I can't even look at it let alone buy it.

                                                
Colors for an HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition
Message #35 Posted by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. on 16 Apr 2007, 10:52 p.m.,
in response to message #34 by Steve Borowsky

Will H-P will do something which picks up on the 35th anniversary of the introduction of the HP-35? Of course they will! From a marketing perspective it is just too good an opportunity After all, with an HP-35 designation and a 35th anniverary logo somewhere on the body HP-RPN afficianados will buy at least one whether or not they like how the machine looks and operates.

What key colors will be used? The original HP-35 used blue keys. Machines such as the HP-67 and the Voyagers used yellow and blue keys. However, the 35tb wedding anniversary gift is defined as coral for traditioinal practice and jade (i.e., green) for contemporary practice. The HP-33s already has a green key for selecting green options and a red key for selecting red options. Water down the red a little and you approach coral, and there you are.

                                    
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #36 Posted by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. on 16 Apr 2007, 11:21 p.m.,
in response to message #32 by Bernie

Bernie wrote:

Quote:
... Unfortunately, the TI-30 dominated schools all around the globe and maybe all those kids now are dumber if they had had a HP instead.

The advocates of algebraic have always held that is the essence of dumb and dumber to insist on using a LOL (Lower Order Language) machine to evaluate equations if a HOL (Higher Order Language) machine is available. But, there have always been strong differences of opinion about the relative merits of RPN and Algebraic. In the olden days the HP/RPN community wrote about the TI/AOS community as being "the dark side". The TI/AOS community noted that the acronym RPN actually stood for Really Pathetic Notation. When I shared that with Richard Nelson last summer when we were discussing the differences between machines and users he responded that the correct definition was Really Powerful Notation. We agreed to disagree.

I suggest that the HP/RPN and TI/AOS communities are not only different but, more importantly, are each insular and provincial in their own ways. That isn't just my idea. When Wozniak wrote of finding that the famous (or maybe infamous) Mach number equation was easily solved with one of TI's early scientific machines he reported that "... My colleagues couldn't believe it. I told them that you just copy the formula from left to right but not one of them could see through their postfix fog. ... ... None of them could do what I had done, forget that they have to be smart." It isn't just the HP/RPN community. The TI/AOS community is just as provincial with [see my comment above] the emphasis on why would anyone want to evaluate an equation other than by simply entering it as one sees it on paper if only one could.

                                          
Re: HP-35 / 35th Anniversary Edition expected soon
Message #37 Posted by Katie Wasserman on 17 Apr 2007, 12:03 a.m.,
in response to message #36 by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr.

Five grueling years of graduate school in computer science taught me just one thing: "pick the language to most easily solve the problem in". The RPN vs AOS choice is just a special case of this edict.


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