HP Forum Archive 16

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HP 42S Message #1 Posted by e.young on 30 Aug 2006, 12:24 p.m. I recently obtained my first HP 42S, and my initial impression is, wow! A great machine. It really is a shame that the functionality of the 32sii and 33s represents the continuing legacy of programmable RPN calculators. I wonder how difficult it would be for HP to add the some of the 42S functionality into a new RPN programmable.

Re: HP 42S Message #2 Posted by Ron Ross on 30 Aug 2006, 12:46 p.m., in response to message #1 by e.young Many of the sales of the Hp33s are to prospective FE or PE candidates. The Hp 42s was previously and specifically banned before the present calculator policy came into effect, even when other graphics calculators were still allowed. So Hp is unlikely to offer any calculator with much (if any) more power than the present Hp 33s, which is presently allowed by the NCEES exam board. If the Hp 42s were released with a serial port, units conversions and 32K or more of RAM, I would be happy with the perfect pocket calculator! If even the Serial port were available, much could be done, but the first time you change batteries, you will realize THIS MAJOR SHORTCOMMING! Alas, Memory can be expanded, but real I/O is not available (serial com was an original option that was abandoned so as to not rob sales from the other lines).

Re: HP 42S Message #3 Posted by e.young on 30 Aug 2006, 4:00 p.m., in response to message #2 by Ron Ross I would be happy if only the programming ability of the 42s was introduced in a 33s successor. Before experiencing the 42s, I didn't realize just how limiting it is to only have single character variables. It would seem that offering that to the 33s should still result in a NCEES compliant calculator. Do you know what specifiaclly about the 42s caused the NCEES to ban it? I know that they are very concerned about calculators with I/O capability.

Re: HP 42S Message #4 Posted by Ron Ross on 30 Aug 2006, 4:35 p.m., in response to message #3 by e.young The graphics calculators allowed were all single variable machines ie Ti-81 and some others. The ability to hold long variable names led to the belief that whole problems could be stored (which may be theoreticaly true, but to anyone who has used an Hp42s also knows how time consuming entering in any alpha text of any length IS!). Hence the Hp41c/42s line were specificaly banned before many graphics. That the Hp33s was released was that the Hp32s was very popular (at $60 vs $110 for the 42s) in addition to the easy conversion/morphing process of the Hp32s hardware and documentation into the Hp33s. The Hp42s was priced above more powerful and feature rich graphics so it never did sell well. The Hp17Bii is identical hardware and it never outsold the Hp12c, yet has lots more functions and features (same analogy in the business line). Low end high quality pocket calculators seem to have a hard time to sell above the $60 ceiling.

Re: HP 42S Message #5 Posted by Jeff O. on 30 Aug 2006, 12:59 p.m., in response to message #1 by e.young Once HP decided to make a new model, incorporating features and functions would probably be easy. Hrastprogrammer's HP42X application incorporates the mass storage capabilities that it needs, my guess is he could easily add the other couple of improvements that I would like to see in a 42S replacement. Thomas Okken wrote an entire calculator simulator program from scratch, and I'm sure he could likewise add a few features easily. The big hurdle would be HP making the decision to produce a new RPN programmable. There have been many discussions regarding what might motivate HP to do so. The pragmatic conclusion always seems to be that HP is in business to make money for their shareholders, and that a new 15C, or 42S replacement etc. will probably not pass the business test.

Re: HP 42S Message #6 Posted by e.young on 30 Aug 2006, 4:04 p.m., in response to message #5 by Jeff O. I'm not suggesting a replacement for the 42s, although I would definitley be in favor of that. I would be happy to see just the 42s programming capability given to the 33s. Multi-character variables are so powerful. Maybe HP intends for anyone who wants more than the 33s to move up to the 50g.

Re: HP 42S Message #7 Posted by Jim Creybohm on 30 Aug 2006, 1:33 p.m., in response to message #1 by e.young I also just obtained my first 42, and I agree, it is a stunning machine. It is a lot of fun to use, and it runs quick. The shirt pocket sizing is nice as well. It's a hoot to use, and I am enjoying it more than my beloved 41's. I can also whole-heartedly endorse Thomas' 42 emulator on the PocketPC. It works wonderfully, and was actually a catalyst in my decision to pursue getting an analog ;) version. Just for a moment, what if HP stuffed the 33S into the 12C body? Two line display (ideally nicer than the present 33), and with the ability to be carried, AND can be used on the engineering exams. (Just to keep the management happy, we'll call it the 42CPA.) Jeez, maybe I'll buy a couple of the 33's and 12's and see if I can frankenstein them together...

33S market Message #8 Posted by Norris on 30 Aug 2006, 2:45 p.m., in response to message #7 by Jim Creybohm It's probably true that a significant fraction of 33S sales is driven by the engineering and surveying exam market. For example, HP has announced a "publishing frenzy" of 33S exam software, and they didn't even list vendors like this one or this other one. Does anyone now market commercial HP calculator software for any other applications besides NCEES licensing exams?? But the problem with the NCEES exam market is that it's so small. You start this process by taking the FE or FS exam. According to NCEES, about 43,000 FE exams and 3,000 FS exams were scored for 2005-2006. But some of those were repeat takers, so the actual number of new exam candidates last year was lower. Furthermore, the 33S is only one of several NCEES-approved calculators; it has a significant market share, but not all of it; probably not even a majority. So there can't be more than 10,000 - 20,000 people per year buying the 33S for NCEES exams. This is not the market that HP wants; it wants to sell calculators to incoming high school students and incoming college freshmen, where the numbers are in the millions. The NCEES market is a small niche that HP may want to keep, but it's probably much too small to justify the expenses of a major redesign of the 33S. Edited: 30 Aug 2006, 6:38 p.m. after one or more responses were posted

Re: 33S market Message #9 Posted by e.young on 30 Aug 2006, 4:12 p.m., in response to message #8 by Norris but would a major redesign be needed to enhance the programming capability of the 33s? A more advanced 33s, even if NCEES allowable would probably eat into sales of the 50g, so I acknowledge that my hopes for a 33s with some of the features of a 42s are pipe dreams.

Re: 33S market Message #10 Posted by bill platt on 30 Aug 2006, 4:47 p.m., in response to message #9 by e.young There just isn't any reason to make a programmable calculator anymore. There are other tools now that have gained acceptance. We may see value, but most of the world does not. Edited: 30 Aug 2006, 5:23 p.m. after one or more responses were posted

Sadly true! (N.T.) Message #11 Posted by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil) on 30 Aug 2006, 5:10 p.m., in response to message #10 by bill platt

Re: 33S market Message #12 Posted by e.young on 30 Aug 2006, 5:56 p.m., in response to message #10 by bill platt but what about the hp50g?

Re: 33S market Message #13 Posted by bill platt on 30 Aug 2006, 6:24 p.m., in response to message #12 by e.young That's a graphing calc.

Re: 33S market Message #14 Posted by e.young on 30 Aug 2006, 8:58 p.m., in response to message #13 by bill platt I know, but it is also a programmable

Re: 33S market Message #15 Posted by Gene Wright on 31 Aug 2006, 11:41 a.m., in response to message #14 by e.young Perhaps Bill meant that there may not be a market need for a non-graphing programmable, since graphing has other definite uses. I hope that's incorrect, but ...

Re: 33S market Message #16 Posted by Norris on 31 Aug 2006, 12:48 p.m., in response to message #15 by Gene Wright There is a huge and lucrative market for graphing calculators. High school and college students buy them by the (literally) millions. However, the educational market belongs to TI (in the US) and Casio (in other countries). HP has had little success penetrating it. In contrast, there is virtually no market for non-graphing programmable calculators, such as the 33S. That's why neither TI nor Casio even bothers to market such calculators in the US any more, although they have offered such models in the past. Basic programmable graphing calculators are now available at such low cost that non-graphing programmables are not competitive. For example, the Casio FX-7400GPlus (a black-and-white graphing model) is $29.99 at amazon.com; the Casio CFX-9850GPlus (a color graphing model) is $49.99. For comparison, the 33S (with a 2-line black-and-white display) is offered at $39.99. Non-graphing programmables like the 33S can only compete in niches where graphing calculators are banned, such as NCEES exams. Amazon has already figured this out: if you look up the 33S there, you will be automatically offered a "Better Together" savings deal on a 33S plus an FE exam review manual. Edited: 31 Aug 2006, 12:51 p.m.

Re: HP 42S Message #17 Posted by Steve Borowsky on 31 Aug 2006, 6:03 a.m., in response to message #7 by Jim Creybohm Quote: I can also whole-heartedly endorse Thomas' 42 emulator on the PocketPC. It works wonderfully, and was actually a catalyst in my decision to pursue getting an analog ;) version. That's an interesting choice of words...but wouldn't it be more accurate, in this case, to call the PocketPC version the analog?

Re: HP 42S -- Analog vs. Virtual Message #18 Posted by Paul Brogger on 31 Aug 2006, 6:32 p.m., in response to message #17 by Steve Borowsky The both have the LOG function, so neither are analog. ;^> The Pocket PC version is a "virtual" 42s, while the Pioneer version is a "real" 42s. Edited: 31 Aug 2006, 6:32 p.m.

Re: HP 42S Message #19 Posted by Jim Creybohm on 31 Aug 2006, 6:53 p.m., in response to message #17 by Steve Borowsky While it is probably technically correct to say "virtual" vs. "real", I enjoyed the wordplay at the time of writing. Semantics, I know, but it seemed humourous.

Re: HP 42S Message #20 Posted by Steve Borowsky on 31 Aug 2006, 7:05 p.m., in response to message #19 by Jim Creybohm Quote: While it is probably technically correct to say "virtual" vs. "real", I enjoyed the wordplay at the time of writing. Semantics, I know, but it seemed humourous. I hope you realize my post was meant in good humor, I didn't want to sound analog retentive.

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