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HP-50g flawed?
Message #1 Posted by Micheal Tsu on 8 Aug 2006, 4:37 p.m.

Hi,

I'm in a 2nd year engineering program, and signed up for a course that was originally stated to require either the HP-49g+ or HP-50g. However, just today I've gotten the following email from the prof for the course:

Quote:
As announced earlier by email, the calculator to be used in this course, the HP-49g+, has fallen out of production. Hewlett-Packard released an "improved" version of it, the HP-50 (at the time of my first email this was a rumor, not it is confirmed, as you will se below).

Last week, the bookstore received a handful of those calculators and last Friday I got one of those HP-50 to check its compatibilities with the HP-49g+. The result is this: do NOT buy the HP-50 until you hear from me. So far I have found one major issue with the machine that se- verely affects its usefulness to us in our course, so I am instructing the Bookstore to return to the manufacturer the machines they have until they solve the issue. I will also be emailing Hewlett-Packard directly to advise them that there seems to be an error in the ROM of the HP-50 that prevents it to do something crucial in our course.

Summarizing, do NOT buy the HP-50. Not at any price. If you can secure an HP-49g+, buy it, however, if HP does not solve the issue with the 50 by September, as there won't be enough 49g+ for the entire class, I will have to reconsider the structure of part of the course (I am already work- ing on that possibility).

What fatal flaw could he be talking about? I was just getting ready to buy one, but now I'll have to put that off.

Thanks!

      
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #2 Posted by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil) on 8 Aug 2006, 4:54 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Micheal Tsu

Hi, Michael;

As it happened with the HP49G and the HP49G+, the HP50G has its O.S. stored in FLASH ROM, meanning that it accepts upgrades. If the problem is related to the O.S., I guess your teacher did not consider this possibility and took the wrong action when instructing the bookstore to return the calculators to the manufacturer. If it happens to be some flaw related to a particular behavior, chances are that an upgraded version of the O.S. corrects it.

It seems to me it would be a good idea to contact your teacher and ask him about this possibility before his suggested actions take place.

Cheers.

Luiz (Brazil)

            
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #3 Posted by Bill (Smithville, NJ) on 8 Aug 2006, 5:43 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil)

Hi Luiz,

Quote:
If it happens to be some flaw related to a particular behavior, chances are that an upgraded version of the O.S. corrects it

Of course, that assumes the upgrade arrives in time before classes start :)

But I agree that the instructor may be a little premature in his actions. Since he doesn't detail the error or flaw that he found, no one here can verify that it occurs across the board or just on select calculators. Did he test it on the other calculators that the bookstore had to verify that it is a consistant flaw.

Also, not to doubt the instructor, but is it truly a fault, or a change in how a particular operation is being performed.

Maybe Michael could tell the instructor about the HPMuseum site and he could share his findings with us. While I don't have a HP-50G, I know others here have received them and would be itching to check out what he has found out.

Bill

            
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #4 Posted by Speck on 8 Aug 2006, 5:52 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil)

I have to wonder what could have been so wrong that would warrant that kind of response? I agree that steering students away from the HP 50G was probably a little bit hasty. I also agree that a flash upgrade would likely solve the problem. And I add that in the meantime, if it's a particular command or process, one would think that a UserRPL- or assembly-programmed workaround could be written, unless there is some aspect of the programming system, or a very basic-level function, that is broken. Granted, one shouldn't have to start adding a bunch of programs to a new product to fix things that are broken or missing, but it happens. Just ask the regular TI users! ;-) (It still amazes me what my HP will do out of the box that my TI had to be programmed to do).

I certainly hope that the instructor in question reads this board and/or the comp.sys.hp*** boards and shares what was found. The community can certaily find a workaround quickly, while HP addresses the core issue. If it's that bad, the rest of us might need to know, too. By asking the bookstore to send them back, the instructor has also possibly deprived other students not in that particular class, who might purchase and use that machine, and who may never be affected by the particular "bug." But then, we still don't know what the bug is.

Speck

                  
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #5 Posted by Speck on 8 Aug 2006, 5:55 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Speck

Geez, I don't even have the words typed, and you're already posting my thoughts.

Bill, get out of my head!

j/k.

Speck

            
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #6 Posted by Ron Allen on 8 Aug 2006, 10:48 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil)

Luiz,

I wonder if we early birds all have the same ROM? WHAT SAY THIS FORUM RUN A QUICK CHECK.

My VERSION IS "Version HP50-C Revision #2.08"

My serial # is CNA61805632

What are yours and yours and....

And, if the teacher would just share his symptoms, and if they are repeatable, there is way more than sufficient talent on this forum to provide a quick work-around while HP designs a permanent fix. Since the 50 is so nearly the 49g+ with a history of updates, I doubt that the few design changes would seriously impact something so fundamental to the entire system. Hate to suggest it, but a loyalist to an HP competitor just might be involved in an academic decision - been known to happen.

Ron

                  
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #7 Posted by John Smitherman on 8 Aug 2006, 11:46 p.m.,
in response to message #6 by Ron Allen

Ron, VERSION yields the same result for me. The S/N on the crooked sticker is 61807133.

Thus far, I'm very pleased with the 50G but there's only one feature that keeps me from making it my primary calculator:

I prefer viewing numbers with the thousands places separated by a comma while I'm entering them. Is this possible?

Regards,

John

                        
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #8 Posted by Happy HP User on 9 Aug 2006, 6:04 a.m.,
in response to message #7 by John Smitherman

Use FIX notation.

With STD stack display,

1E5 returns 100000

0 FIX 1E5 returns 100,000.

1 FIX 1E5 returns 100,000.0

and so on...

                              
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #9 Posted by John Smitherman on 9 Aug 2006, 9:29 a.m.,
in response to message #8 by Happy HP User

Hi Happy HP User. Yes, that works after I hit the Enter key. However, I want to see the thousands places separated as I key in the number. For example, if I'm entering the number 1,000 I want to see:

1 10 100 1,000

and with Fix 2 I would see 1,000.00 after hitting the Enter key.

Surely, this is possible with the 50G and 49G+ but I can't find the flag or option to set.

Thanks,

John

                                    
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #10 Posted by Gene Wright on 9 Aug 2006, 11:00 a.m.,
in response to message #9 by John Smitherman

Nope, not possible. Has not been possible for several generations of high end HP's now.

The command line is not processed until ENTER is pressed, so the calculator does not go and insert commas into numbers until that point.

Would be particularly tricky, since commas are also user-enterable delimiters for inputs on the command line.

Short answer: Can't be done.

                                          
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #11 Posted by John Smitherman on 9 Aug 2006, 6:33 p.m.,
in response to message #10 by Gene Wright

Thanks Gene. That's what I had concluded but wanted to check with the experts. It would be nice to see thousands separation though.

I'll have to keep an RPN model around that supports this feature.

Regards,

John

                  
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #12 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 9 Aug 2006, 1:39 a.m.,
in response to message #6 by Ron Allen

Hi, Ron;

good words from you, indeed.

Unfortunately I have no HP50G... <8^( but I'm trying to find a way to have one. To be more than honest, the main reason I have to try buying HP calcualtors is the chance to share ideas and experiences here with you, guys. I see little, very little activity related to HP calculators in Brazil. At least where I live... and there is a big University plus at least four minor ones in the neighbor citty. Many students have their HP's (all students at engineering plus I.T., mechatronics, telecom, finance and economy as major 12C niches, etc.), and we see not a single advertising anywhere. So, I have no one to talk about the calculators, their usage and programming. Maybe my country mates are luckier than I (Gerson?)

Let's see what comes next. After reading Gene's post about the linear system solver (LINSOLVE), I guess that the problem may be related to it because LINSOLVE is a CAS command to (symbolically) solve linear systems of nth. order, and this sort of tool is well used (and wished) in classroom.

Cheers.

Luiz (Brazil)

Edited: 9 Aug 2006, 1:41 a.m.

                        
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #13 Posted by Ron Allen on 10 Aug 2006, 7:43 p.m.,
in response to message #12 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

Thanks for your nice note, Luiz. Sorry, I have no suggestions for you to try in Brazil, but surely you can ship from U.S. with all the translations offered in the manuals and calculators.

I do agree with you about the HP calculators being a catalyst for communication as well as aa personal, portable solution finder for many problems. I have maintained a strong dedication to programmable calcs since 1977 when I found that the TI 59 could replace the K&E Decilog slide rule I had worn in college and beyond.

I find that the HP 49 and earlier calcs have become very good friends, portable and personal devices to help me stay sharp in calculus and programming itself. I firmly expect more, not less, of the 50. The 50 was a mistake in judgment by a group of planners at HP, a calculated risk that trading off a little reliabity for a better market price was a good idea! (Everyone else is doing it!) TIME OUT. "Everyone else" doesn;t include HP. We have come to expect best quality and reliability from HP. Too bad HP but you set the standard and we have enjoyed it as loyal subjects. You just don't enjoy the luxury(?) of deciding to go along with "everyone else." You're the White Sox of Calculators when you try it, "TELL ME IT AIN'T SO, JOE?"

Ron

                              
Re: HP-50g flawed?( trailer)
Message #14 Posted by Ron Allen on 10 Aug 2006, 7:55 p.m.,
in response to message #13 by Ron Allen

WHOOPS!

Didn't mean to say "50 was an error in judgment,"

MEANT TO SAY "49" (RE: planners)

APOLOGIES, HP!

Ron

                              
You bet you're right! (NT)
Message #15 Posted by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil) on 11 Aug 2006, 1:19 p.m.,
in response to message #13 by Ron Allen

      
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #16 Posted by the person formerly known as dot on 8 Aug 2006, 7:44 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Micheal Tsu

I bet it's because of the built in equation library.

            
O.T. why has "." changed his name?
Message #17 Posted by bill platt on 15 Aug 2006, 1:11 p.m.,
in response to message #16 by the person formerly known as dot

no text

                  
Re: O.T. why has "." changed his name?
Message #18 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 15 Aug 2006, 1:45 p.m.,
in response to message #17 by bill platt

Would that be a fact?

By using "formerly known as dot" instead of "formerly known as '.'" made me think that, in fact, he/she decided to 'describe' him/herslef, instead.

Otherwise, who knows?

Cheers.

The person still known as Luiz (Brazil)

                        
Re: O.T. why has "." changed his name?
Message #19 Posted by Namir on 15 Aug 2006, 5:05 p.m.,
in response to message #18 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

Vieira,

Sounds like you have too much free time. Sooooooooo ... I have an assignment for you. We need a root-seeking algorithm that gives Newton's method a run for its money. So you are on. Keep us posted here, we are eager to hear about any progress.

Anyone else has free time, they can also get in the search for a better root-seeking algorithm.

It's time we take on Newton!!! He had only a pencil and paper, while we have calculators, computers, and more computers!!!

<wide grin>

Namir

                        
Re: O.T. why has "." changed his name?
Message #20 Posted by Ed Look on 16 Aug 2006, 11:22 a.m.,
in response to message #18 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

I'll bet his real name is Dorothy. ;D

      
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #21 Posted by Gene Wright on 8 Aug 2006, 10:46 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Micheal Tsu

Might be the LINSOLVE function. It has had a bug in the last ROM revision or two, but it is supposedly fixed in the yet unreleased ROM 2.09.

Absolutely NO reason to avoid buying a 50g (unless you're wayne and don't want anything but an HP48gx).

Gene

P.S. Wayne, that's a JOKE. :-)

            
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #22 Posted by Mike Mander on 9 Aug 2006, 2:27 a.m.,
in response to message #21 by Gene Wright

Hi Gene,

HP just posted the 4.09 (v92) ROM to their website and I successfully updated my 50g. The LINSOLVE bug does indeed seem fixed now. The "USB brown out" bug is not though...

According to HP, this update is for the 50g as well as the 49g+, however a few people who have tried it on their 49g+ reported that it breaks the equation library. Doh!

Regards, Mike Mander

                  
Correction... Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #23 Posted by Mike Mander on 9 Aug 2006, 2:30 a.m.,
in response to message #22 by Mike Mander

Oops! I meant ROM version 2.09, not 4.09. Sorry...

                  
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #24 Posted by Greg Whitfield on 10 Aug 2006, 2:24 a.m.,
in response to message #22 by Mike Mander

I've seen the posts in this forum about "HP USA Web site Announces HP50G" , found the HP 50g in HP's online store and the new ROM update for the HP 49g+ that mentions the HP 50g, but when I look at the HP Calculator web site, I still don't see the HP 50g! When I search for "HP 50g" or "50g" under support, I get "We were unable to locate the support & troubleshooting page for the product "hp 50g"."! Just where are you all looking? Can someone provide a URL?

Thank you, Greg

                        
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #25 Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 10 Aug 2006, 3:33 a.m.,
in response to message #24 by Greg Whitfield

Try here.

That URL is from an old bookmark that I happen to have saved. HP's site could certainly stand some improvements.

Regards,
James

                              
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #26 Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 10 Aug 2006, 3:49 a.m.,
in response to message #25 by James M. Prange (Michigan)

PS:

This version 2.09 update apparently doesn't include the equation libraries (normally stored in port 2). It reportedly works fine with the 50g; just don't purge libraries 226 and 227 before updating.

Actually, it would be a good idea to back up those libraries, and anything else in port 2, to a card or PC.

It doesn't work properly on a 49g+ though; the "old" equation libraries don't work with version 2.09. If you can do without the equation library, but want the fix for LINSOLVE, you could just purge libraries 226 and 227 and update to 2.09. Otherwise, don't bother to update, or if you already have, go back to version 2.06.

Or posssibly one could copy libraries 226 and 227 from a 50g to a 49g+, and then apply the 2.09 update to the 49g+. I haven't read of anyone trying this.

Regards,
James

                                    
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #27 Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 10 Aug 2006, 4:27 a.m.,
in response to message #26 by James M. Prange (Michigan)

PPS:

I wrote:

Quote:
Or posssibly one could copy libraries 226 and 227 from a 50g to a 49g+, and then apply the 2.09 update to the 49g+. I haven't read of anyone trying this.
Apparently John Gustaf Stebbins has tried this, and it does indeed work. See: this thread at comp.sys.hp48.

Regards,
James

                                          
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #28 Posted by Arnaud Amiel on 10 Aug 2006, 6:45 a.m.,
in response to message #27 by James M. Prange (Michigan)

I don't have a 50 yet but have upgraded my 49g+. What I did is get the equation libraries from the 50g in EMU48. Those work with the updated ROM on the 49g+.

Arnaud

                                                
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #29 Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 10 Aug 2006, 12:43 p.m.,
in response to message #28 by Arnaud Amiel

Thanks Arnaud, that works for me too, at least as far as I've noticed.

In case anyone's wondering, I used the libraries from the EMU48 included with Version 2.2, Build 85a of Debug4x, available at: http://www.debug4x.com/.

Regards,
James

                                                      
How to transfer equation lib from EMU48 to 49g+?
Message #30 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 16 Aug 2006, 10:19 a.m.,
in response to message #29 by James M. Prange (Michigan)

Hi James,

can you explain in a few words how to transfer the emulator libraries to my real 49g+?

Edited: Dont bother, I found out myself!

I recalled the library(s) from port 2 in EMU48 to the stack and did a "Save As..." from the emulator "Edit" menu. I then transfered the file(s) via USB to my real 49g+, recalled the obejct(s) to the stack, 2 ENTER, STO> and I was done.

Marcus

Edited: 16 Aug 2006, 10:47 a.m.

                              
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #31 Posted by Greg Whitfield on 10 Aug 2006, 11:41 a.m.,
in response to message #25 by James M. Prange (Michigan)

James,

Thank you for this URL link. However, when I try that link, I see a Software & Drivers download page for the HP 49g+. There is no mention of the HP 50g! For some reason, it doesn't seem to be on the US HP Calculators page that I'm accessing at HP Calculators. It seems that everyone else sees the HP 50g under the graphing calculators, but I can't seem to find it!

-Greg

                                    
50G link and 39GS Introduction
Message #32 Posted by Matt Kernal (US) on 10 Aug 2006, 1:24 p.m.,
in response to message #31 by Greg Whitfield

The 50G can be found at through this hpshopping link.

What I find funny (pretty sad actually) is the Overview for the new 39GS is really a discription of the 50G.

Matt

                                          
Re: 50G link and 39GS Introduction
Message #33 Posted by David on 17 Aug 2006, 11:17 a.m.,
in response to message #32 by Matt Kernal (US)

After reading thid post, I search for the 50G on HP website and read that it has both RPN and Algebraic. The 39GS documentation only refers to AOS, however, both calculators share an "Enter" key.

Today's issue (August 17, 2006) of the NYT has a brief mention of the 39GS.

As for me, I will continue to use daily my HP41 with Petroleum Fluids Pac and the Reservoir Engineering set of programs.

I do have in my office a 48GX which I only use to verify units.

Edited: 17 Aug 2006, 11:30 a.m.

                                                
Re: 50G link and 39GS Introduction
Message #34 Posted by Gene Wright on 17 Aug 2006, 11:48 a.m.,
in response to message #33 by David

The 39gs is an algebraic only calculator in the tradition (as it is) of the HP38g, HP39g, and HP39g+ calculators.

The ENTER key is more like an "endline" key or return key than the ENTER from RPN.

Notably, many TI calculators that are of course algebraic only also have an ENTER key.

I'm hopeful the color scheme of the HP39gs will appeal to high school students and generate more sales for HP.

More sales = more potential $$ for HP to make toys for us to play with...or at least, a chance.

After all, who doesn't want an HP41GXII+ with 512MB of ram, built-in wifi, DVI connections for external video running on a Dual core 5Ghz intel processor?

Big :-)

                                                
Re: 50G link and 39GS Introduction
Message #35 Posted by Matt Kernal (US) on 17 Aug 2006, 11:49 a.m.,
in response to message #33 by David

You're right. The 39GS Overview has been corrected since my previous post. What I said about being sad, is that the proof-reading was totally absent. The entire paragragh was a fairly detailed description of the 50G.

Matt

p.s. I didn't proof read this message.

                        
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #36 Posted by Jeff O. on 10 Aug 2006, 8:21 a.m.,
in response to message #24 by Greg Whitfield

Are you looking for an official "announcement" of some sort, or just the the 50g included in the listing of calculators? The closest thing to an announcement that I could find is here, on the lower right under "New Products." The link just takes you to the 50g page, not to any kind of press release.

                              
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #37 Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 10 Aug 2006, 9:26 a.m.,
in response to message #36 by Jeff O.

It does seem a bit strange to me that there hasn't been any announcement at http://www.hp.com/calculators/news.

Maybe HP figures that with the 50g being so similar to the 49g+, a press release isn't worth the bother?

Regards,
James

                                    
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #38 Posted by Gene Wright on 10 Aug 2006, 11:34 a.m.,
in response to message #37 by James M. Prange (Michigan)

who knows?

                              
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #39 Posted by Greg Whitfield on 10 Aug 2006, 11:55 a.m.,
in response to message #36 by Jeff O.

Jeff,

Thanks for the links. If you go to US HP Calculators it shows the calculators supported by HP in the US. When I look at it, the HP 50g is not there. I know the HP 50g can be found at the HP online store (your links show that). Others on this forum mention going to the HP 50g support pages to obtain the new ROM update. I can't seem to find that page. As I mentioned before, a search for "HP 50g" or just plain "50g" comes up empty in the HP support area. I'm just trying to find out if that is the case for everyone or if I'm looking at some sort of outdated web pages.

-Greg

                                    
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #40 Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 10 Aug 2006, 12:20 p.m.,
in response to message #39 by Greg Whitfield

Okay, I think I see what you mean. Go to http://www.hp.com/calculators/index-us.html and click on "49g+", which takes you to http://www.hp.com/calculators/graphing/49gplus/index.html. Now click on "Update software & drivers", which takes you to http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareCategory?product=351775&lc=en&cc=us&dest_page=product&dlc=en&, and click on, for example, "Microsoft Windows XP", which takes you to http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareList?lc=en&cc=us&dlc=en&product=351775&dest_page=product&os=228, which has a link labelled "HP 49G+/50g ROM upgrade", which takes you to http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareDownloadIndex?lc=en&cc=us&dlc=en&os=228&product=351775&dest_page=product&softwareitem=ca-31429-3 which is what we want for the latest update for either the 49g+ or the 50g.

For this ROM revision at least, the same files apply to both the 49g+ and the 50g.

I do agree that the HP sites leave a lot to be desired, and in particular they need to include information on the 50g in a lot more places.

Regards,
James

                        
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #41 Posted by Ron Allen on 10 Aug 2006, 6:49 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Greg Whitfield

Greg, I got most of my information via HP Home store, which came up fia one of the search engines, but I imagine you already know how to get there. Once in ask for the 50G and you will have navigable locators for software, support etc, plus a product overview.

I ordered mine last Thursday and it was delivered on Sunday.

The guy at HP calc (Sorry, I forget his name - Dakotas)is out of town for a week or so and gave me the impression like he might not be on top of the orders for another week. He had a better price, free shipping and managed state sales taxes, but I was willing to pay the extra to get mine on the way with free shipping.

While Home store might not have all you are looking for, I expect they will have most of it.

Ron

      
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #42 Posted by Micheal Tsu on 9 Aug 2006, 4:33 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Micheal Tsu

I've just receieved the following email from my prof, and it appears the issue has been resolved.

Quote:
As is usual with Hewlett-Packard, they responded immediately to my concerns on the issues with our mandatory-calculator, the HP-50 (now that our chosen one has been replaced by this new model).

I have in my hands now, and have already uploaded it to my evaluation HP-50, the newest version of the operating system's ROM. It is a very straightforward process, as you will discover soon. The calculator works fine now. We are "go".

I emailed him previously an inquiry about what the exact problem was, but he said it was a "software issue" and left it at that.

Well, now that it's all clear, I can go ahead and buy one and start exploring. :) Thanks

            
Re: HP-50g flawed? - had to be the LINSOLVE...
Message #43 Posted by Gene Wright on 9 Aug 2006, 5:37 p.m.,
in response to message #42 by Micheal Tsu

since that is the primary thing the new rom 2.09 fixes.

Funny how a professor goes to great lengths to not give information.

And, also funny how much the professor over-reacted. One would think he would have waited at least a couple of days to give HP a chance to respond before crying out that the sky was falling.

                  
Re: HP-50g flawed? - had to be the LINSOLVE...
Message #44 Posted by Vassilis Prevelakis on 9 Aug 2006, 11:21 p.m.,
in response to message #43 by Gene Wright

 Gene Wright wrote:
> funny how much the professor over-reacted.
Well, if he recommended (or even required) students to purchase such calculators, he would be in a very difficult situation if the students went ahead and purchased them, only to find out that they would not be used in class after all.

He had to act fast to prevent students from purchasing these things. If the problem was then solved he could (as he in fact did) tell the students that it was OK to purchase the HP-50Gs after all.

> Funny how a professor goes to great lengths to not give information.
This is very strange, I would have thought he would be more open about it, esp. since the problem was resolved.

**vp

                  
Re: HP-50g flawed? - had to be the LINSOLVE...
Message #45 Posted by Ron Allen on 10 Aug 2006, 7:10 p.m.,
in response to message #43 by Gene Wright

Careful, Mr. Wright, we don't want to cause our student to receive a lower than earned grade because he had the courage to come to us when he needed a straight, pragmatic answer. I think courses using mandatory equipment purchased by students at the bookstore should include an hour or two on how to approach supporters, formal and informal to get ideas, i.e. SUPPORT! That's exactly what our young friend did - lesson learned treat everyone with respect, especially our young engineering students, we are going to need them!

AND, in the process he learned to respect us. (Psst, I still think there was probably a little pressure on the teacher to go mandatory with a competitor's product. He is most likely a winner in this too. That would make him to be someone worthy of respect as well.

Just a thought or two - and I think you were right about LINSOLVE.

Ron

      
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #46 Posted by Karl Schneider on 9 Aug 2006, 11:32 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Micheal Tsu

Michael --

I think that the real flaw is that (what I would assume is) a general course is beng taught around a specific "niche" consumer-electronic product, which each student must purchase at considerable cost.

Granted, Texas Instruments has exploited this "philosophy" of education with tremendous success, but still...

-- KS

            
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #47 Posted by James M. Prange (Michigan) on 10 Aug 2006, 3:55 a.m.,
in response to message #46 by Karl Schneider

Of course, if HP had applied the LINSOLVE fix to the 50g in the first place, or at least had the upgraded ROM easily available when the first units were delivered, then it wouldn't have been a problem.

Regards,
James

            
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #48 Posted by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. on 10 Aug 2006, 12:02 p.m.,
in response to message #46 by Karl Schneider

You wrote:

I think that the real flaw is that (what I would assume is) a general course is beng taught around a specific "niche" consumer-electronic product, which each student must purchase at considerable cost.

The flaw is a direct result of the dearth of individuals who are truly bilingual. Professors aren't any better than ordinary folk in that respect, and maybe worse. Richard Vanderburg used to write about the need for bilinguals in 52 Notes and Maurice Swinnen used to write about that in TI PPC Notes. When I assumed responsibility for TIPPC Notes I looked for bilinguals but only found a few. Two notable ones were Professor Widmer from the University of Connecticut and Albert Smith from Brooksville, Florida both of whom would chide me whenever I published anything than wasn't even handed. Part of the problem is that the different communities are essentially very provincial. For example, when describing his experience in demonstrating how easy it was to solve the infamous Mach Number problem on a TI machine Wozniak wrote:

"... My colleagues [at HP] couldn't believe it. I told them that you just copy the formula from left to right but not one of them could see through their postfix fog. ..."

where the "... you just copy the formula ..." words capture the position of the AOS community and the old "... do the arithmetic just like you would with pencil and paper ... " words capture the position of the RPN community.

"East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet."

                  
Mach Number problem on the HP8s
Message #49 Posted by Gene Wright on 10 Aug 2006, 1:02 p.m.,
in response to message #48 by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr.

The HP8s is HP's lowest end scientific calculator.

Eventually, there should be some learning modules posted for it on the Australia country page within www.hp.com/calculators.

One of the examples I did was the Mach Number problem. Solves just find on the HP8s, but one does have to pay close attention to the parentheses. :-)

                  
The essence of RPN vs AOS/EOS
Message #50 Posted by Karl Schneider on 10 Aug 2006, 11:39 p.m.,
in response to message #48 by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr.

Palmer Hanson posted:

Quote:
The "... you just copy the formula ..." words capture the position of the AOS community and the old "... do the arithmetic just like you would with pencil and paper ... " words capture the position of the RPN community.

Yes, that is the distilled essence of the difference between RPN and AOS/EOS.

RPN embodies the approach one would actually take when solving a problem on paper, using only simple computing aids, such as trigonometric and logarithm tables and a slide rule -- perform computations individually, where the input arguments are already available for use.

AOS/EOS embodies the rote "Solve the problem by keystroking exactly what you see on the paper" approach.

Of course, I prefer RPN, because one is generally performing a given calculation only once. A tested and debugged equation for solving the particular problem will probably not be available; consequently, seeing each intermediate result and knowing what it represents is very important for having confidence in the final result.

In EOS (e.g., Casio fx-115MS, TI-80 series) the expression that shows in the display seldom matches visually what is written or printed on the paper, for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, that is the only means of verifying the correctness of a complete expression prior to hitting "=" or "ENTER" to produce a result that must be accepted on faith.

In AOS, one sees intermediate results irregularly (only as dictated by heirarchy), and it's sometimes difficult to determine what operation(s) were consummated. The user may need to insert parentheses in places where none are present on the paper.

RPN will never become obsolete!

-- KS

                        
Re: The essence of RPN vs AOS/EOS
Message #51 Posted by the person formerly known as dot on 11 Aug 2006, 1:38 a.m.,
in response to message #50 by Karl Schneider

The biggest problem I have with RPN is that you cannot see what you typed to verify correct entry and the result at the same time. EG if I want to divide 111345423 by 7, an RPN calculator will only show me the answer 15906489. It will not show me

111345423/7=15906489

All on the screen at once. With the large screen on todays graphical calculators there is no reason why both the results and history can't be shown at once.

                              
Re: The essence of RPN vs AOS/EOS
Message #52 Posted by Karl Schneider on 11 Aug 2006, 11:19 p.m.,
in response to message #51 by the person formerly known as dot

Quote:
RPN calculator will only show me the answer 15906489. It will not show me

111345423/7=15906489

All on the screen at once. With the large screen on today's graphical calculators there is no reason why both the results and history can't be shown at once.

Of course, due to the order of the operations, if an RPN calculator actually displayed that, it wouldn't be RPN... ;-)

One can "fake it" on the large-screen RPL-based 28/48/49 models: Enter an algebraic expression in single quotes onto the stack twice, then hit "->NUM" to see the answer below the expression.

To record history of calculations on an RPN calculator:

Choice of models:
HP-42S
HP-41C* with 82242A IR print module
HP-17BII in RPN mode

Accessory: 82240A or 82240B IR printer

Execute PRTON, then TRACE

Each answer displayed in the x-register will be printed below the operation that produced it.

-- KS

Edited: 12 Aug 2006, 1:26 p.m.

            
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #53 Posted by Micheal Tsu on 10 Aug 2006, 6:29 p.m.,
in response to message #46 by Karl Schneider

Quote:
Michael --

I think that the real flaw is that (what I would assume is) a general course is beng taught around a specific "niche" consumer-electronic product, which each student must purchase at considerable cost.

Granted, Texas Instruments has exploited this "philosophy" of education with tremendous success, but still...

-- KS

So in your opinion, how likely is this product going to be useful for me after university? It will supposedly be either needed or very useful for a few courses at least in electrical engineering at my school.

I already own a TI-83+ which I have been using for a while, and at this point I have two choices (I don't want to keep two graphing calculators if possible): 1. Get the HP-50g, sell the TI-83+ 2. Get the HP-49g+ and sell it after I'm done with it, keeping the TI-83+. If I'm going to be using this thing for a long time yet, then I might as well get the HP-50g since it has certain issues solved which were prevalent in the 49g+.

                  
Re: HP-50g flawed?
Message #54 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 16 Aug 2006, 11:02 a.m.,
in response to message #53 by Micheal Tsu

Hi Michael,

I would keep both. The machines are sufficiently different to enjoy them both and compare results for equivalent problems. If you just want to copy the keystrokes as presented by your prof you'll need exactly the requested machine. But if you want to learn problem solving on a calculator it is wise to have more than one incarnation.

BTW, do you know what mode of operation, RPN or Algebraic, will be used in your course?

Marcus

            
Re: HP-50g flawed? [consolidated response]
Message #55 Posted by Karl Schneider on 10 Aug 2006, 11:05 p.m.,
in response to message #46 by Karl Schneider

I originally posted:

Quote:
I think that the real flaw is that (what I would assume is) a general course is beng taught around a specific "niche" consumer-electronic product, which each student must purchase at considerable cost.

James Prange posted:

Quote:
Of course, if HP had applied the LINSOLVE fix to the 50g in the first place, or at least had the upgraded ROM easily available when the first units were delivered, then it wouldn't have been a problem.

Palmer Hanson posted:

Quote:
The flaw is a direct result of the dearth of individuals who are truly bilingual (in the sense of using different calculator entry systems).

I'd say that both of these responses miss the true point I was making (and which has been discussed previously in this Forum). I'm not sure what the specific subject of the course was, but it's not good pedagogical practice to tailor instruction in a general skill to the operating procedures of a particular consumer product. This approach teaches "cookbook learning" instead of analytical understanding. From what I read and hear, secondary-school math instruction has devolved into, "Get this calculator and follow these exact steps to solve problems" instead of establishing solid grounding in theory and problem-analysis.

Beyond the fundamental unsoundness of this modern approach, the practical implications aren't too hard to imagine: What if the calculator is discontinued? What if the student prefers a different tool? What if a problem can't be solved in a straightforward fashion on the calculator?

Micheal Tsu posted:

Quote:
So in your opinion, how likely is this product going to be useful for me after university? It will supposedly be either needed or very useful for a few courses at least in electrical engineering at my school.

I'd suspect that working engineers use PC-based software instead of handheld calculators to solve the problems you (and other students) are likely being asked to solve on an HP-50G or a TI-89. I got through two EE programs in the 1990's using a non-graphing HP-15C for exams. If you are being asked to solve computationally-intensive problems during exams using an HP-50G, how can the professor be sure that you really understand the material?

Regards,

-- KS

                  
Re: HP-50g flawed? [consolidated response]
Message #56 Posted by Howie on 14 Aug 2006, 3:59 p.m.,
in response to message #55 by Karl Schneider

You guys crack me up... like you really go to school to learn anything. Hell. I was too busy trying not to fail to waste time actually learn something. Ok sarcasm off.

                  
Re: HP-50g flawed? [consolidated response]
Message #57 Posted by e.young on 15 Aug 2006, 12:40 p.m.,
in response to message #55 by Karl Schneider

Quote:
This approach teaches "cookbook learning" instead of analytical understanding. From what I read and hear, secondary-school math instruction has devolved into, "Get this calculator and follow these exact steps to solve problems" instead of establishing solid grounding in theory and problem-analysis.

Beyond the fundamental unsoundness of this modern approach, the practical implications aren't too hard to imagine: What if the calculator is discontinued? What if the student prefers a different tool? What if a problem can't be solved in a straightforward fashion on the calculator?

I agree with you on this. From what I have seen of recent college graduates it seems to me that something similar may be happening in college. Some seem to be almost totally dependent on software to solve even the simplest of problems. I for something very simple to be designed using a calculator and pencil, and its a big problem. I do this to see if underlying principles are understood.

My apologies for straying off topic.

                        
Re: HP-50g flawed? [consolidated response]
Message #58 Posted by Ivo on 22 Aug 2006, 6:06 p.m.,
in response to message #57 by e.young

I have just purchased an HP50g from Amazon. I have a major problem with the CAS system in the original ROM version rev 2.08. My problem relates to solving electrical network loop equations using the inverse matrix. If I use real numbers plus a variable, I get rediculous results in the inverse matrix. It could be that this problem is fixed with the ROM revision, however I cannot get conn4x to run on either of my XP machines. The USB driver seems to install correctly, however the exe will not run without performing an access violation. I have noticed that worldwide other people are having this problem. It appears that older versions of conn4x do work with xp, but how can get hold of the older version. I have version 2.3 build 2434. Unfortunately, HP Customer Care in the States are not interested in supporting a user in New Zealand. The 50g is not yet available in NZ.

                              
Re: HP-50g flawed? [consolidated response]
Message #59 Posted by Gene Wright on 22 Aug 2006, 7:16 p.m.,
in response to message #58 by Ivo

You might consider posting your questions to the HP48/HP49/HP50 usenet group named:

comp.sys.hp48

which can be found using www.groups.google.com

There you will find people particularly attuned to the RPL family of calculators.

There are many here who can help too :-) but you might find more answers to the question in the comp.sys.hp48 location.

Gene

                                    
Re: HP-50g flawed? [consolidated response]
Message #60 Posted by ivo on 22 Aug 2006, 8:10 p.m.,
in response to message #59 by Gene Wright

Thanks for that Gene!

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