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The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #1 Posted by jbssm on 10 May 2006, 2:49 p.m.

Hi all,

I'm having a strange problem.

Sometimes, when applying new batteries to the HP 41C series, they simply stop responding and die (even units that I've tested just a while ago and were perfectly working).

But if I wait some time with the batteries off (about a week I think) and then install batteries again, they suddenly return to life and work perfectly.

Has anybody noticed a similar behaviour? Any tips on how to solve it without having to wait all this time?

Cheers, jbssm

Edited: 10 May 2006, 4:41 p.m.

      
Re: The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #2 Posted by Charles on 10 May 2006, 6:59 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by jbssm

I've seen this once with an HP 41CX calculator. I had not used for about six months and could not get it to switch on. I reversed the batteries and it restarted. I can't be certain as it was some time ago but I think that the contents of the memory were lost.

            
Re: The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #3 Posted by jbssm on 12 May 2006, 3:12 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by Charles

Hi there.

Doesn't the reversing of the batteries damage the calculator?

Did you reversed all the batteries or just some?

                  
Re: Like Dead HP 41C Calculators - Series Diode
Message #4 Posted by Andres Rodriguez (Argentina) on 13 May 2006, 3:37 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by jbssm

If I recall correctly (from memory), the HP41C CPU board has a diode connected in series with the batteries, so reversing the batteries would have no effect (neither good nor bad).

I suppose such a diode is also present in halfnut models, but am not sure about it. I also think (not 100% sure) that this same device protects the VBat connection on the I/O ports.

A series diode causes a voltage drop (and, in fact, a little power loss). Such drop is dependent on the semiconductor element used. Most electronic devices made in the last decades are silicon (Si) based. Si has a forward voltage drop of about 0.7 volt.

However, the particular diode in the abovementioned circuit is a germanium (Ge) diode, which were more common in the 50s and the 60s. Germanium has only a 0.3 Volt forward drop, so HP showed once more a "thinking outside the current fad" attitude, protecting the calculator from misplaced batteries but also losing as little battery power as possible.

Germanium is far from obsolete, but you will not usually find this kind of detail and care in a consumer device.

                        
Re: Like Dead HP 41C Calculators - Series Diode
Message #5 Posted by David Smith on 15 May 2006, 11:34 a.m.,
in response to message #4 by Andres Rodriguez (Argentina)

Actually it is a Schottkey barrier diode with a 0.37V forward drop....

                              
Re: Like Dead HP 41C Calculators - Series Diode
Message #6 Posted by Andres Rodriguez (Argentina) on 23 May 2006, 7:20 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by David Smith

I apologize for the error. I recall I measured the forward voltage drop on my HP41C back in the '80s. The 0.3 Volt measurement made me suppose (wrongly) it was a germanium diode. At that time I didn't thought about a Schottky device. I should have considered that possibility; in those years I was regularly working with 74SXX TTL ICs repairing bit-slice CPU boards. Incidentally, some were AMD-based, but with AM2900s, not an Opteron there :-)

For the current discussion sake, any of both devices will protect the calculator from reversed batteries.

Edited: 23 May 2006, 7:32 p.m.

                                    
Re: Like Dead HP 41C Calculators - Series Diode
Message #7 Posted by Davd Smith on 24 May 2006, 10:24 a.m.,
in response to message #6 by Andres Rodriguez (Argentina)

Remember, HP was the company that commercialized the Schottkey diode... before them they were very exotic things that lived in labs and sold for zillions.

      
Re: The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #8 Posted by db (martinez, ca.) on 10 May 2006, 11:55 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by jbssm

I once wiggled the il module while using my first 41 and then it would only speak in conji. I called hp and they had me try a few things. nothing worked and they finally said that i had really pissed it off and should try taking out the batteries for a week and buying it flowers. No dice. I called back and they said i would have to leave the batteries out for six months. That worked, and is why i bought a second.

            
Re: The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #9 Posted by jbssm on 11 May 2006, 5:22 a.m.,
in response to message #8 by db (martinez, ca.)

6 months !!!!

:-S

This is too much time.

            
Re: The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #10 Posted by bill platt on 12 May 2006, 3:42 p.m.,
in response to message #8 by db (martinez, ca.)

Well, I'd really start to worry if it started speaking in katakana ;-)

      
Re: The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #11 Posted by Chiu Yiu Wai on 11 May 2006, 8:08 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by jbssm

My 41cv has same problem , somtime it can't detect the module , sometime hang on , somtime display " monster" symbol , but some time work properly . Do anyone tell me what's wrong of calculator and how to fix it.

Edited: 11 May 2006, 9:36 a.m.

            
Re: The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #12 Posted by bernhard on 11 May 2006, 1:58 p.m.,
in response to message #11 by Chiu Yiu Wai

Hi folks,

I don't have this problem with an HP41C but I do have it with my MP3 player. It hangs when a fully charged battery is inserted - most of the time. Sometimes it comes to life, though.

Best guess for the causation is a troublesome power-on reset circuit. Very tempting for design managers to assign their design to beginners as they apparently are simple. Alas, they are among the most difficult circuits in the real world. This world is littered with bad products whose POR circuit is the reason why they drive their owners nuts.

regards, Bernhard

      
Re: The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #13 Posted by David Smith on 12 May 2006, 6:05 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by jbssm

This is a rather common thing to happen. I can usually get them to start up by taking the pack out and reinserting it after a while (usually no more than a minute). Then give it a hard reset (SHIFT+ON) a few times. Lather, rinse, repeat as needed. I also seem to have better luck alternating attempts with a N cell pack and a nicad pack. Sometimes I leave the battery in for several minutes and try again.

As a last ditch effort, you can open the machine and short out the big filter capacitors.

            
Re: The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #14 Posted by jbssm on 13 May 2006, 6:07 p.m.,
in response to message #13 by David Smith

Hi, thanks.

Just one thing, isn't the Hard Reset the BACKSPACE+ON combination instead of the SHIFT+ON combination ?

                  
Re: The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #15 Posted by David Smith on 14 May 2006, 11:09 a.m.,
in response to message #14 by jbssm

Yep...

                        
Re: The strange case of Like Dead HP 41C Series Calculators
Message #16 Posted by jbssm on 23 May 2006, 8:44 a.m.,
in response to message #15 by David Smith

I've add mixed result with this procedure.

For one, yes, it works in bringing the calculator back to life, but whenever I turn it off, it just stops working again and I have to complete the procedure again for it to turn on again :(


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