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HP Forum Archive 16

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Inimigos da HP ( Enemies of HP )
Message #1 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 1 May 2006, 10:42 a.m.

No, this is not a consumer group unpleased with the company's latest calculators, it's just the name of a music band from São Paulo I saw on TV ads during my stay in Porto Alegre last week.

The name is a reference to HP calculators, not the company itself.

From the band's webpage (an approximate translation):

"The [band's] name is a nice joke! The group is composed of five engineers, an advertiser, a graphic designer and a lawyer. During their college years all eight musicians with no exception used HP calculators. During their free time they put their calculators aside and dedicated themselves to Samba, hence the choice of the now nationally known name."

-----------------------------------------

Original text in Portuguese:

"O nome é uma bem sacada brincadeira! Fazem parte do grupo cinco engenheiros, um publicitário, um designer gráfico, e um advogado. Durante a chamada carreira acadêmica, os oito músicos, sem exceção, fizeram uso de calculadoras da marca HP (Hewlett-Packard). Nas horas de descontração, deixavam as calculadoras de lado e se dedicavam ao samba, daí a escolha do nome que hoje é reconhecido nacionalmente."

http://www.inimigosdahp.com.br/index.htm

      
Re: Inimigos da HP ( Enemies of HP )
Message #2 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 1 May 2006, 3:23 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Gerson W. Barbosa

Hi, Gerson;

I've been told about them last year, but their's is not exactly the kind of music I like, so I didn't give them fair credit. I think you did well, now, because if any of ou contributors and regular visitors read about them from another source, it would probably cause them to have wrong thoughts, though.

Best regards.

Luiz (BraSil)

            
Re: Inimigos da HP ( Enemies of HP )
Message #3 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 1 May 2006, 4:34 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

Hello Luiz,

Actually I had never heard of them before. But an interesting fact I'd like to point out is the preference for HP calculators in Brasil. TIs are hardly found here, so no wonder HP [ah 'gah 'pay] has become almost a synonim to scientific calculator.

Best regards,

Gerson.

PS.: About spelling Brazil with an s, I think this won't work. When the word entered into the English language it was spelled with a z here. English is a very conservative language regarding spelling, so Brazil will not be spelled with an s just because our grammarians have decided this was better :-)

                  
(O.T.) Brasil X Brazil
Message #4 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 1 May 2006, 6:03 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by Gerson W. Barbosa

Hi, Gerson; thanks for pointing it out.

just to add that I sometimes write BraSil (with capital S, to enphasize) instead of Brazil when the subject is mainly realated to our own facts or when the one writing is a Brazilian guy, mostly a newcommer. I mainly write it Brazil. In fact, the English-version spells the same as it was in the past, so...

I face some radical Brazilians that disagree with that, and claim that the original name is distorted. I tell them that in this case, we should write and spell all other country's names as they are. The first example I use is the United States of America, that they all insist on writing Estados Unidos da América. "At least", I say, "Brazil has only one letter being changed. And in fact, Brasil would sound differently ("Brassil") when pronounced this way by an English speaker. So, Brazil is closer to the pronounciation".

Cheers.

Luiz (Brazil)

                        
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil
Message #5 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 1 May 2006, 7:54 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

Hello again Luiz,

Sorry, I had not noticed your convention about that.

I did like your clever example, I will use it whenever I hear people complaining about Americans spelling Brazil with a z (they always do).

Now, to change the topic a bit, do you remember an old HP ad that went like this "Se você quiser que seu filho seja PHD, DHP para ele"? (I can't translate this, can you?). Well, last year I gave my 17-year old son an HP-33S. After one year he still uses it only at school and occasionally at home when doing his homework. Instead of playing with it, he'd rather play his guitar... (a future inimigo da HP? :-) At least, he prefers RPN (but only because he thinks the ALG mode on the 33S is not so good as on the 30S he had before...)

Cheers,

Gerson (Brazil).

                              
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil
Message #6 Posted by John Smitherman on 5 May 2006, 6:28 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by Gerson W. Barbosa

Quote:

Well, last year I gave my 17-year old son an HP-33S. After one year he still uses it only at school and occasionally at home when doing his homework. Instead of playing with it, he'd rather play his guitar... (a future inimigo da HP? :-) At least, he prefers RPN (but only because he thinks the ALG mode on the 33S is not so good as on the 30S he had before...)

Cheers,

Gerson (Brazil).


Hi Gerson. The one feature that I like on the 30s that the 33s (in alg mode) doesn't have is the capability of reviewing previous entries. I don't know why this isn't available on the 33s.

John

                                    
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil
Message #7 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 5 May 2006, 10:03 p.m.,
in response to message #6 by John Smitherman

Quote:
The one feature that I like on the 30s that the 33s (in alg mode) doesn't have is the capability of reviewing previous entries. I don't know why this isn't available on the 33s.

Hello John,

Perhaps HP should implement better algebraic modes on their hybrid calculators. A recent mistake I think they made was the lack of operator precedence in ALG mode on early 12C Platinums. This morning I recommended a 12C Platinum to a work colleage who's just started an Accounting course. But he wouldn't accept my advice because his teacher told him the old golden 12C was better. I asked him what was the trouble with the newer 12C and he said it had to do with the calculator getting wrong results for calculations like '2 + 3 * 4'. I told him there was a newer version, but my advice to him was just 'try it before buying'.

Gerson.

                                          
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil
Message #8 Posted by John Smitherman on 8 May 2006, 7:59 a.m.,
in response to message #7 by Gerson W. Barbosa

Quote:

I asked him what was the trouble with the newer 12C and he said it had to do with the calculator getting wrong results for calculations like '2 + 3 * 4'. I told him there was a newer version, but my advice to him was just 'try it before buying'.

Gerson.


Gerson, my "updated" 12cp (s/n 532...) yields 20.

John

                                                
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil
Message #9 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 8 May 2006, 10:52 a.m.,
in response to message #8 by John Smitherman

Hi, John;

your unit is one of the type with parenthesis, under [STO] and [RCL], and undo/backspace features, right? I tested with mine (Serial #: CNA534XXXXX), and math precedence is still something at the user domain.

Cheers.

Luiz (Brazil)

                                                      
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil
Message #10 Posted by John Smitherman on 8 May 2006, 3:18 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

Quote:
Hi, John;

your unit is one of the type with parenthesis, under [STO] and [RCL], and undo/backspace features, right? I tested with mine (Serial #: CNA534XXXXX), and math precedence is still something at the user domain.


Yes, my 12cp has the new features - parentheis, backspace, etc. I prefer having control over precendence with RPN but my 12 year old son likes using a two line algebraic even though he is well versed in order of precedence. That younger generation...

Regards,

John

                                                
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil
Message #11 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 8 May 2006, 6:07 p.m.,
in response to message #8 by John Smitherman

Hi John,

That would be the correct result... if the base were 7! :-)

Thanks for testing. I thought they had fixed this on the "updated" 12C. Well, there's a new 12C around, the HP-12C Prestige, let's hope they have fixed that.

Regards,

Gerson.

                                                      
Re: HP 12C Alg precedence
Message #12 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 9 May 2006, 10:43 a.m.,
in response to message #11 by Gerson W. Barbosa

I think that *not* following the precedence rules in algebraic business calculators is common practice. It seems to be thought that business people are "arithmophobics": They just can handle four-bangers with dedicated TVM keys, no more no less. ;-)

TI's BA II Plus can switch modes (with or without precendence), the default being *without* (grrrrr). Its vintage cousin BA II (an early LCD) does not follow the precedence rules, nor does the LED "Business Analyst".

What about HP?

The 18C doesn't do multiplication before addition on the command line but in the solver (what are those designers thinking?)

The same holds for the 19B II in alg mode.

The 12C platinum in Alg mode doesn't do precedence; that's consistent at least because there is no solver.

The HP200LX in Alg mode *does it right*! You can switch it to RPN but you can't turn off operator precedence in Alg mode. The solver of course follows the precendence rules, too.

What's the moral?

I don't know...

Marcus

                                                            
Re: HP 12C Alg precedence
Message #13 Posted by Gene on 9 May 2006, 11:01 a.m.,
in response to message #12 by Marcus von Cube, Germany

The morals are:

1) If you have algebraic mode, you must at least have parentheses to allow a user to determine order of operations if they wish.

2) give the business user the choice between chain logic and algebraic w/precedence.

Every student in the US is taught in the 3rd/4th grades that you do "multiplication and division before addition and subtraction".

Business students are not taught to change that...unless they are forced to use a business calculator that won't do it like the 3rd graders are.

Gene

                                                            
Re: HP 12C Alg precedence
Message #14 Posted by Gerson W. Barbosa on 9 May 2006, 5:51 p.m.,
in response to message #12 by Marcus von Cube, Germany

Quote:
TI's BA II Plus can switch modes (with or without precendence), the default being *without* (grrrrr). Its vintage cousin BA II (an early LCD) does not follow the precedence rules, nor does the LED "Business Analyst".

Thanks! This explains it all. What I thought was something that needed be fixed appears to have been designed on purpose.

Gerson.

                        
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil - Comments from a European
Message #15 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 3 May 2006, 7:54 a.m.,
in response to message #4 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

Here in Europe, the spelling and even the naming of foreign countries is mostly not in the language of the named country. Here are some examples in the three languages I know:

Local Name      German               English          French
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Deutschland     Deutschland          Germany          Allemagne
                / deutsch            / German         / allemand
Nederlands Niederlande Netherlands les Pays-Bas / holländisch / Dutch / néerlandais
United States Vereinigte Staaten United States États-unis (of America) (von Amerika) (of America) (d'Amérique) / amerikanisch / American / américain
Brasil Brasilien Brazil Brésil / brasilianisch / brazilian(*) / brésilien
(*) Spelling error corrected, I wrote "brazilien"
Sometimes the spelling is made in a way to help with the correct pronounciation (as in BraZil), sometimes the names are entirely different and may even lead to confusion: "Dutch" is not "Deutsch" (German).

Marcus

Edited: 5 May 2006, 8:38 a.m. after one or more responses were posted

                              
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil - Comments from a European
Message #16 Posted by Thibaut.be on 4 May 2006, 4:44 a.m.,
in response to message #15 by Marcus von Cube, Germany

Add that Germany is said "Allemania" in Italian, and German "Tedesco"... Even more way out...

                                    
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil - Comments from an European
Message #17 Posted by Antonio Maschio (Italy) on 4 May 2006, 5:28 a.m.,
in response to message #16 by Thibaut.be

Quote:
Add that Germany is said "Allemania" in Italian, and German "Tedesco"... Even more way out...

NO! In Italian Germany is Germania not Allemania!

-- Antonio

Edited: 4 May 2006, 5:29 a.m.

                                          
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil - Comments from an European
Message #18 Posted by Thibaut.be on 4 May 2006, 6:07 a.m.,
in response to message #17 by Antonio Maschio (Italy)

Scusi !

                                                
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil - Comments from an European
Message #19 Posted by Antonio Maschio (Italy) on 4 May 2006, 8:47 a.m.,
in response to message #18 by Thibaut.be

Quote:
Scusi !

You're welcome. Where do you come from? Belgium? How come you know Italian?

-- Antonio

                              
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil - Comments from a European
Message #20 Posted by bill platt on 4 May 2006, 11:30 a.m.,
in response to message #15 by Marcus von Cube, Germany

only one spelling error--- "brazilian" for the english word for a person from Brasil

Nice Compilation!

Others:

Firenze = Florence
Muenchen = Munich
Lyon = Lions or Lyons
Sverige = Sweden
Norge = Norway
Suomi = Finland
Magyarország = Hungary
日本国=Nippon = Japan
北京 =Peking=Beijing  (attempt at chinese characters)
And then we have the names that Fell from Usage or Grace: Ceylon, Formosa, Siam, Persia, Burma, and of course Soyuz Sovetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik...

Edited: 4 May 2006, 11:30 a.m.

                                    
Re: (O.T.) Brasil X Brazil - Comments from a European
Message #21 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 5 May 2006, 8:40 a.m.,
in response to message #20 by bill platt

Quote:
only one spelling error--- "brazilian" for the english word for a person from Brasil
Thanks for the hint, I've made a correction.

Marcus

      
Still O.T. - This site has its own spirit...
Message #22 Posted by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil) on 4 May 2006, 1:19 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Gerson W. Barbosa

Hi, all;

I would like to express my deepest respect to those who actually care for culture, acquire of knowledge and its consequences. Although this site is mainly dedicated to Hewlett-Packard calculators and related stuff, having off-topic subjects like this to stimulate other parts of our brains is relaxing. Wow!

Well, now for an additional thought of mine. I used to think of how easy would it be if we all simply knew other countries´ names as they were in their origin. This way, we would not need to know how is our county´s name written in other languages. Now I am somehow curious, because I once knew a lot of countries´ names in Portuguese (should refresh my geography knowledge somehow), but I only know a few country names in their native languages and, even worse, I know just a few versions of the name of my own country in other languages... So, when dealing with countries’ names, we need at least three references for each language: our own country name in that language, our own version of the foreign country´s name and their own.

Did I miss something here?

Cheers...

Edited: 4 May 2006, 1:20 p.m.

            
Re: Still O.T. - This site has its own spirit...
Message #23 Posted by Juan J on 4 May 2006, 1:30 p.m.,
in response to message #22 by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil)

During a recent trip to Brazil (sorry I could not meet with you, Luiz) I found a brochure from either Mercedes-Benz or Volvo, I do not remember well, celebrating 50 years of presence in Brazil. "50 years of writing Brazil with an s," began the brochure, and went on about the success of the company. Of course, the need to write "Brasil" instead of "Brazil" was mentioned, as a respectful way of adapting to the country's language and culture; some comments, all respectful as well, were added about the latter.

Knowing the name of a country in its language is sort of a first step into understanding it, as well as its culture, I think.

            
Re: Still O.T. - This site has its own spirit...
Message #24 Posted by Thomas Okken on 4 May 2006, 2:16 p.m.,
in response to message #22 by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil)

Quote:
Well, now for an additional thought of mine. I used to think of how easy would it be if we all simply knew other countries´ names as they were in their origin. This way, we would not need to know how is our county´s name written in other languages.

Nice thought, but that strategy does nothing to ease the remaining 99.999% of the difficulty of learning a foreign language!
Now, if the whole world would agree to use only one language, that would take care of everything. I'll start holding my breath now. :-)

More to the point, apart from names that are drastically different in different languages (Hellas/Greece, Suomi/Finland, etc.), the minor differences usually have to do with pronunciation. For example, I know how to pronounce "Deutschland" correctly, but if I were to try to do that in the middle of speaking a sentence in Dutch, it would be very awkward. So, I just say "Duitsland", the Dutch name for Germany, which rolls off the tongue easily without having to switch pronunciation modes twice in mid-sentence. And without having everyone stare at me as if I were some pedantic show-off. ;-)

- Thomas

                  
Re: Still O.T. - This site has its own spirit...
Message #25 Posted by bill platt on 4 May 2006, 2:52 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Thomas Okken

Classical Music dj's and NPR newsanchors are very pedantic about the proper pronucniation of the composer "Bach" and also like to say harASSment as "HARrismunt" in a pedantic way.

Spanish language radio stations in NYC, besides turning up the modulation too hot, and too much reverb, are noteable for the prounciation of place names, trademarks etc. In the middle of a rapid-fire spanish-staccato announcement, you'll hear a perfect Brooklyn accent say, "Times Square" or "Brooklyn Bridge" and then continue into staccato spanish without missing a beat. It is hilarious to hear it--really catches your attention.

Edited: 4 May 2006, 2:54 p.m.

                  
Re: Still O.T. - This site has its own spirit...
Message #26 Posted by John Smitherman on 5 May 2006, 6:22 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Thomas Okken

Quote:

Now, if the whole world would agree to use only one language, that would take care of everything. I'll start holding my breath now. :-)

- Thomas


I don't believe that we will ever agree on a common first language but how about a common second language? I wouldn't really care which one we picked. What are your thoughts on using a planned language such as Esperanto as our common second language?

John

                        
Re: Still O.T. - This site has its own spirit...
Message #27 Posted by Thomas Okken on 5 May 2006, 6:35 p.m.,
in response to message #26 by John Smitherman

Quote:
What are your thoughts on using a planned language such as Esperanto as our common second language?

Having a common second language is already the solution of choice in large parts of the world. If I were to travel to Scandinavia, for example, I'm confident that I'd have very little trouble getting by with English -- which is a second language for me and everyone I'd meet.

I think proposals to use designed languages like Esperanto are just a compromise for people who worry that old enmities will cause every *natural* living language to be vetoed by *someone*. I think it won't be necessary -- English seems to be well on its way to becoming the global second language, and even though that means that native speakers of Enlish will have a bit of an advantage there, I personally have no problem with that. For me as a native speaker of Dutch and German, learning English opened up a huge reservoir of literature, movies and television for me, not to mention travel... It's just a matter of what's practical, like VHS beating Beta. ;-)

- Thomas

                        
Re: Still O.T. - This site has its own spirit...
Message #28 Posted by bill platt on 6 May 2006, 12:34 a.m.,
in response to message #26 by John Smitherman

Planned second languages are like planned economies...

                              
Re: Still O.T. - This site has its own spirit...
Message #29 Posted by John Smitherman on 6 May 2006, 10:32 a.m.,
in response to message #28 by bill platt

Bill, I liken Esperanto more to Linux.

Regards,

John

                                    
Re: Still O.T. - This site has its own spirit...
Message #30 Posted by Thomas Okken on 6 May 2006, 11:50 a.m.,
in response to message #29 by John Smitherman

I'm sure Bill Gates with his "software communism" rhetoric would say that that's the same thing. ;-)

- Thomas


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