HP Forum Archive 16

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I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #1 Posted by Gene on 9 Nov 2006, 5:19 p.m. From ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/Hewlett-Packard-HP-65-Library-Blackjack_W0QQitemZ260049858350QQihZ016QQcategoryZ58039QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem This seller presently has quite a few of these old HP Library programs for sale on ebay. While I wouldn't pay the $7-9 for each program, I do wish that a scan of this (and other programs from the old libraries) were available to users. So, who out there has old copies of these library programs? Scan them into PDF format and make them available to all. :-)

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #2 Posted by Karl-Ludwig Butte on 10 Nov 2006, 3:17 a.m., in response to message #1 by Gene Hi Gene, well, quite a considerable suggestion. But (and this is a big BUT) what about copyrights ? I'd like to pass on this question to all forum members and especially to Dave Hicks. Just in case the copyright question could be solved, there are a few other questions: - Would Dave Hicks support a "HP-Users-Library Recreated" as new project and section here in the MoHP ? - Would other forum members be willing to share their copies of old HP-User-Library-Programs by scanning and sending them to "HP-Users-Library Recreated" ? - Does anyone still have a Library catalogue, so that it can be verified to which degree the Library has been recreated ? - and all other questions I forgot to ask Personally, I'd support such an initiative by scanning the programs I submitted at the time. Programs by others I have I'd submit only if the copyright-question is solved. Just in case this suggestion and discussion had already been held here in the forum I apologize for not checking the archives before hitting the "Post now"-button. Hoping for an interesting "HP-Users-Library Recreated"-thread. Best regards Karl

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #3 Posted by Eric Smith on 10 Nov 2006, 4:04 a.m., in response to message #2 by Karl-Ludwig Butte If the programs were published in the US before 1989, and they don't have an explicit copyright notice, they are in the public domain. There is a very limited exception for cases where the copyright notice was unintentionally omitted on a small number of copies and the author attempted to correct the omission. As a reasult, I expect that most if not all of the contributions to the calculator program libraries in the US are in the public domain. Also, by submitting the programs to the program library, the author had the expectation that the program would be publicly distributed without any compensation other than the points or other promotional items that they were given by the program library at that time. Thus even if the program was not in the public domain, the author had no reasonable expectation of limiting the program distribution nor of deriving revenue from distribution. This may be sufficient to be construed as an implied license, but even if it is not, certainly there would be no actual damages resulting from copying the program. In the US, unless a copyright was registered, the author is not entitled to collect statutory damages, so the total monetary liability for copyright infringement (in the unlikely case that such occurs) is zero. I wouldn't hesitate to put user's library programs on my web site on the basis of copyright, because realistically it is a non-issue. The worst thing likely to happen would be for the author of a program to have a lawyer send a Cease and Desist order, and even that is extremely unlikely. I have no idea how the copyright laws of other countries work.

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #4 Posted by Bram on 10 Nov 2006, 4:53 a.m., in response to message #2 by Karl-Ludwig Butte Quote: Just in case the copyright question could be solved, (...) Once I asked HP twice for permission to spread a scan of the "Enter vs. equals" booklet, but they didn't even react. Just to let you know ... ("once twice", funny sentence. There was a time that I asked HP ... and some time after I re-asked the question.)

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #5 Posted by Klaus on 10 Nov 2006, 5:54 a.m., in response to message #2 by Karl-Ludwig Butte I think Mr. Hicks already has this permission from HP: http://www.hpmuseum.org/software/swwant.htm Edited: 10 Nov 2006, 5:54 a.m.

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #6 Posted by Bill (Smithville, NJ) on 10 Nov 2006, 7:54 a.m., in response to message #2 by Karl-Ludwig Butte Hi Karl, Quote: well, quite a considerable suggestion. But (and this is a big BUT) what about copyrights ? I'd like to pass on this question to all forum members and especially to Dave Hicks. Does anyone have a copy of the original HP Submission form? I would think this form would include a statement as to what the original submitter was agreeing to as far as ownership, distribution rights, etc. One thing to keep in mind - many of these have the original submitter's name, address, and in some cases phone numbers. A few years ago, I scanned in for Gene the TI user submitted programs. I left their name but was very careful to make sure I deleted from the scans all other personal data. Bill

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #7 Posted by Gene on 10 Nov 2006, 9:55 a.m., in response to message #6 by Bill (Smithville, NJ) Agreed, Bill. I wouldn't want the address of the writer to be prominently displayed...although, very FEW people live in the same house today that they lived in 25 years ago. Some I'm sure, but the average family moves every 7 years. I would just like to encourage all of us who have such materials to scan them into PDF and make them available. Quite a large amount of HP and TI material is already available at these sites: http://www.neko.com/ and http://www.rskey.org/library.html

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #8 Posted by Vassilis Prevelakis on 13 Nov 2006, 11:57 p.m., in response to message #7 by Gene Gene wrote: > Agreed, Bill. I wouldn't want the address of the writer to be > prominently displayed...although, very FEW people live in the same > house today that they lived in 25 years ago. Some I'm sure, but > the average family moves every 7 years. I think the 7 year rule applies to the States. Two greek contributors to the HP library (myself and another one) have addresses that are still valid (even the phone numbers work, provided you follow the rules to convert from the old phone numbering system). **vp

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #9 Posted by Bill (Smithville, NJ) on 14 Nov 2006, 7:06 a.m., in response to message #8 by Vassilis Prevelakis Quote: the average family moves every 7 years Of coure that begs the question - Are HP users "Average"? :) Bill

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #10 Posted by Karl-Ludwig Butte on 10 Nov 2006, 9:47 a.m., in response to message #2 by Karl-Ludwig Butte Hello All, and thanks a lot for all your responses so far. So the copyright seems not to be so much of a problem after all as I thought it may be. Especially Klaus' response indicate this. That leaves the more practical (and labourous) part to be solved. First I'd like to thank Eric Smith for his offer to host the "HP-Users-Library Recreated". Although I have no preference of either Eric's website or David's MoHP, what about you guys ? And of course I would be very interested in David Hicks opinion. After answering the website-question, we all need to be busy to scan as much programs as possible and send them to the selected site. And we'd need to do a little advertising and spreading the word, so that others would join. Guess you already noticed, I get a bit enthusiastic about this project and I hope all of you, too. "The HP-Users-Library is dead - long live the HP-Users-Libray Recreated" one might say. Best regards Karl

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #11 Posted by Gene on 10 Nov 2006, 11:30 a.m., in response to message #10 by Karl-Ludwig Butte Great! Although (heresy here)...I'd also like to encourage anyone with programs for the TI-58/59 and perhaps even for the older SR-52/56 to preserve these things for posterity as well. After all, they were the competition and it's certainly true that if WE don't preserve this stuff, no one will. :-) Dave Ramsey's collection represents the HUGE amount of HP and TI programs I bought from an HP/TI user's Widow a few years back. Thanks to Dave for scanning all that stuff in... :-) And Thanks to John Cadick for scanning alot of the materials on Viktor Toth's rskey.org site too.

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #12 Posted by Dave Hicks on 10 Nov 2006, 5:20 p.m., in response to message #10 by Karl-Ludwig Butte Quote: And of course I would be very interested in David Hicks opinion. The problem I've had with the user programs is simply getting a significant quantity of them. I have a (very) few here. (Probably around 20 tops.) These have come up in the past but, so far, there has always been a lot more talk and interest than actual collections of materials to scan. My plan so far has been to get started on a big (re)scanning project for the next DVD involving full color scans of many of the early user's guides. This decision was based on technical improvements (size and prevalence of DVDs, speed of color scanning) plus the simple fact that I have these manuals. :-) I'm interested in the old SW too but it hasn't turned up in large quantities in the past. If these programs became available in quantity, I'd reconsider my plans for how I'm going to spend all my spare time for the next 3 or 4 months.

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #13 Posted by Gene on 11 Nov 2006, 9:35 a.m., in response to message #12 by Dave Hicks Dave, how about putting ALL of the HP user programs at Dave Ramsey's site on the DVDs? I certainly would not mind and I bet Dave Ramsey wouldn't mind either. :-)

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #14 Posted by Dave Hicks on 11 Nov 2006, 4:30 p.m., in response to message #13 by Gene Did we talk about these before? I think I asked how large they were collectively and you said you'd send me a CD of them so I'd know... And then I forgot about it. Does that sound familiar or am I thinking of something else? In any case, probably yes/sure!.

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #15 Posted by David Ramsey on 12 Nov 2006, 11:06 a.m., in response to message #13 by Gene Quote: Dave, how about putting ALL of the HP user programs at Dave Ramsey's site on the DVDs? I certainly would not mind and I bet Dave Ramsey wouldn't mind either. :-) Of course not! I am after all only the curator. And if anyone else has anything they want scanned and added to the site, let me know. I got lots of scanners...

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #16 Posted by Etienne Victoria on 11 Nov 2006, 7:12 p.m., in response to message #12 by Dave Hicks Dave, Considering your rescanning project, should we scan color for the next manuals we upload to the "incoming" dir and to which res (dpi) ? I guess you have nearly all manuals but perhaps not so many french ones :-)) Etienne

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #17 Posted by Dave Hicks on 12 Nov 2006, 12:58 a.m., in response to message #16 by Etienne Victoria At this point, I've only gotten as far as scanning my first manual (just a few minutes ago after 7 hours of work.) I haven't determined exactly how to this will be packaged. My first thought was to rescan most of the earliest manuals in color (since they use so many colors) and then include those in addition to the older/smaller grayscale/B&W manuals. If it goes that way, version 6 would probably be a double-sided DVD with a large collection of B&W manuals on one side and a smaller (<100) collection of color manuals on the other side. (These would be a subset of those on the B&W side.) Also, I was thinking of not making these color manuals available on CD just to keep things simple. (A ~20 CD set is starting to get kind of crazy ;-)) The idea would be that anyone with only a CD drive could still get all of the manuals - just not color versions of some. If the plan stays that way, then I would still want most manuals in gray to go on the main side. Of course, if you send color TIFFs, I could grayscale them as/if needed. So far I've been using 300 DPI full color TIFF files. (Based on this one manual.) It's critical with color to get the contrast and brightness right so that the text is black and the page is completely white. These files, are large. Over the last couple of weeks I've been scanning other manuals in B&W. These manuals are the typical manuals that use black and just one color for accents and don't loose much by being in grayscale. But I'm not sure the plan will stay that way. With only one manual scanned, it's still a fairly untested plan. Do you have some manuals to do with a lot of color? I would like to get more French manuals. (In B&W or color.)

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #18 Posted by David Ramsey on 12 Nov 2006, 11:34 a.m., in response to message #17 by Dave Hicks Quote: At this point, I've only gotten as far as scanning my first manual (just a few minutes ago after 7 hours of work.) I haven't determined exactly how to this will be packaged. My first thought was to rescan most of the earliest manuals in color (since they use so many colors) and then include those in addition to the older/smaller grayscale/B&W manuals. If it goes that way, version 6 would probably be a double-sided DVD with a large collection of B&W manuals on one side and a smaller (<100) collection of color manuals on the other side. (These would be a subset of those on the B&W side.) Also, I was thinking of not making these color manuals available on CD just to keep things simple. (A ~20 CD set is starting to get kind of crazy ;-)) The idea would be that anyone with only a CD drive could still get all of the manuals - just not color versions of some. If the plan stays that way, then I would still want most manuals in gray to go on the main side. Of course, if you send color TIFFs, I could grayscale them as/if needed. So far I've been using 300 DPI full color TIFF files. (Based on this one manual.) It's critical with color to get the contrast and brightness right so that the text is black and the page is completely white. These files, are large. Over the last couple of weeks I've been scanning other manuals in B&W. These manuals are the typical manuals that use black and just one color for accents and don't loose much by being in grayscale. But I'm not sure the plan will stay that way. With only one manual scanned, it's still a fairly untested plan. Do you have some manuals to do with a lot of color? I would like to get more French manuals. (In B&W or color.) Suggestions: 1. Use DVDs, not CDs. Fewer disks, about the same cost these days. 2. I don't think it's worth spending extra time on each page to get a perfect white background and perfect black text. As long as the content is easily readable... 2. I scanned a page of an HP-25 manual in 300dpi 24 bit color and saved in TIFF and JPEG formats. The TIFF file was 7.4 megabytes, the JPEG was 448 kilobytes. I couldn't discern any visual difference in the images until they'd been blown up 500% over actual size. Moral: Use JPEG (high quality setting, of course). You can see the JPEG page, scanned once with no color or contrast correction, at the end of this message. Scanning existing HP manuals would be very tedious. The spiral bound manuals are bad enough; I don't see how the newer perfect bound manuals could be scanned without destroying them. That said, it's probably worth sacrificing some manuals to get good high quality scans. I have some spare perfect bounds I might try.

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #19 Posted by Bill (Smithville, NJ) on 12 Nov 2006, 12:45 p.m., in response to message #18 by David Ramsey Hi David, Quote: 2. I don't think it's worth spending extra time on each page to get a perfect white background and perfect black text. As long as the content is easily readable... I'm not sure I agree with this. If the purpose to to create Archival material, then perfect white background and perfect black text would be best. Also with a very white background, the files can be a smaller size (better compression). I agree that there's not much visual difference between a TIFF and a JPEG. I think the real difference is if the original is poor quality and a lot of editing of the scan needs to be done. In that case, it's better to scan to TIFF, do the editing and then final save in JPEG. Question: Does the newest Acrobat do a better job (size-wise) when using JPEG's versus TIFF? A few years ago, I did several tests using TIFF's and JPEG's and really didn't see a big size difference between the two in the final PDF. Quote: The spiral bound manuals are bad enough Actually, if you're willing to spend a little time upfront straighting out the spiral comb, you can dismattle the manual, scan perfectly flat pages, and reassemble the manual. If you're very careful, you can recurve the wire spiral and not even tell that it had been dissambled. This is very easy to do with the single wire spiral and only a little more difficult with the double wire spiral. I agree that with the bound manuals, you almost have to be willing to distroy one in order to get a flat scan. When I scanned the 32SII manual, I took it to a print shop where they use a heavy duty paper cutter to slice off about 1/8" of the bound portion. After scanning, I then used a 19 hole punch at work to reassemble it with a plastic comb. It's still a good manual to use for everyday use. One last comment - if our goal is to achieve archival material, then the time should be spent erasing the image of the spiral wire, holes and any other artificats that may appear. On several of the Manuals on the HPmuseum DVD, I have taken the PDF, exported the pages to TIFF files, used a image editor to edit each page to delete the edge binding, reassemble to PDF and then print double sided. I've done the same on some of the manuals that were originally scanned two pages at a time - split the pages, clean up the artifacts, and then reassemble into a pdf. The results are amazing when printed out. It takes a little time to do, but worth it in my opinion. If you have both an earlier set of HPmuseum CD's and the lastest set, you can see an example of taking an existing PDF that had two manual pages per PDF page and the end result after cleanup. The manual is HP-28C Calculus book on CD-1. Version 3.1 of CDROMs shows two pages per PDF page and Version 5.0 HPmuseum DVD shows it as one manual page per pdf page - after exporting to TIFF, spiltting pages, cleaning up artifacts, and then reassembing. I have several other manuals that I have cleaned up this way and will be sending them to Dave for inclusion on future CD's, if he wishes. Of course, no matter how much I appreciate the best scans possible, this is, afterall, a hobby for most, if not all, of us, and we all have a lot of things pulling at our limited time. Thanks to Dave Hicks for his time and energy to make the CD's and DVD's possible, and many, many thinks to everyone here who also make this endeaver possible. Bill

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #20 Posted by Dave Hicks on 12 Nov 2006, 1:01 p.m., in response to message #19 by Bill (Smithville, NJ) I've done some experimenting with JPEG and TIFF and have gotten better quality/file size with TIFF (8 bit TIFF). When I set quality of the JPEG high enough to not see artifacts on screen, it becomes larger than an 8 bit TIFF. Even worse, if you print the JPEG on a non-photo printer, the printer sees the JPEG artifacts surrounding the text (as minor as they are) and tries to reproduce them. It does that by creating dither patterns around the text, which is very noticeable on the pages I've tested. By reducing TIFFs to 8 bit color, I'm seeing better results with smaller file sizes. Since these manuals typically have about 4 colors, 8 bit color seems to do a fine job, as long as the pages can be kept "white-enough" to not waste a bunch of the color pallet on dark shades of paper. This also has the benefit of not using a bunch of ink/toner printing something that no one wants printed anyway. Acrobat is able to ("losslessly") compress TIFFs significantly more than my image editor does. JPEGS seem to get stored into a PDF "as is".

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #21 Posted by Bill (Smithville, NJ) on 12 Nov 2006, 3:17 p.m., in response to message #20 by Dave Hicks Hi Dave, Thanks for the detailed response. Your results are similar to what I have seen. Quote: Acrobat is able to ("losslessly") compress TIFFs significantly more than my image editor does. JPEGS seem to get stored into a PDF "as is". That's kind of what I was thinking. But I've been using older versions of Acrobat and was really hoping that the latest version did a better job. Bill

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #22 Posted by Dave Hicks on 12 Nov 2006, 1:41 p.m., in response to message #18 by David Ramsey Quote: 2. I don't think it's worth spending extra time on each page to get a perfect white background and perfect black text. As long as the content is easily readable... Please also see my response to Bill, but on this question, your image is very good. From there, I would crop out the binding and lighten up any dark edges that are left. (At least this is what I'm doing so far - I'm only working on manual #2 of the new process.) Many people send me scans that appear to have been autoexposed on a photo-oriented scanner/SW package. This gives me pages where the background is closer to 18% gray than white. Also, sometimes the contrast is very low so I have gray text on gray paper. I clean these up as much as I can but sometimes it's hard to recover fully from a low contrast scan. There are a lot of different scanner and software packages out there so it's hard to give more detailed advice than to "somehow" get those pages white.

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #23 Posted by Etienne Victoria on 12 Nov 2006, 1:11 p.m., in response to message #17 by Dave Hicks Thank you for your detailed answer Dave! - Regarding manuals in french, at first glance, I can propose: Hp-21A Hp-11C (a new scan, better than the ugly one I already sent to you). Hp-15C Hp-41C Hp-71B User manual Hp-71B User reference Hp-48G Quick start guide Hp-48G/GX user manual Hp-48G/GX AUR The rest should be in the basement but I need a special authorization from my wife to dig there :-)) - About scanning in color, my opinion is that manuals such as the Hp-9815A and all Classic series manuals would benefit a lot from color: - They provide low contrast diagrams which don't render fine in BW. - They provide pictures of red digits and color rendition of the shift keys. Before getting to scan the big manuals, I'd be glad to know the scans that were already sent to you by other people :-) Kindest regards from France! Etienne Edited: 12 Nov 2006, 1:12 p.m.

Here's the list so far Message #24 Posted by Dave Hicks on 12 Nov 2006, 7:55 p.m., in response to message #23 by Etienne Victoria I just quickly put this page together with a list. Most of what you listed is needed!

Re: Here's the list so far Message #25 Posted by Karl-Ludwig Butte on 13 Nov 2006, 4:23 a.m., in response to message #24 by Dave Hicks Thanks a lot for all the contributions so far. But I hope you don't mind and let me point out that the discussion is drifting away from the topic "HP-Users Library Recreated" towards the topic "New color scans of manuals for the next DVD set". But this drifting away has a positiv effect, too. I now see the problems with scanning. Special thanks to David Hicks for his detailed response. As soon as possible I'm going to send you a sample scan of a Users Library Program and then we can discuss how to find the optimum compromise between scan quality (for B/W HP Users Libray Program documentation) and time and file size. When some sort of scan standard for this kind of material has been found, a special upload-page within the MoHP with instructions may be a good idea. Another problem to be solved in my opinion is the availabilty of a HP Users Library Catalogue - the last one before the Library was closed, to be precise. I don't know if there were any differences in the catalogue for the U.S. and the one for the european branch in Geneva, Switzerland. At least the program number and name togehter with an indicator "already scanned" should be available at the website, so that people can check before they scan a documentaion, avoiding double entries. Maybe several forum members could help converting this information from printed to electronic form (I'd take over a package, too, of course) Best regards Karl

Re: Here's the list so far Message #26 Posted by Dave Hicks on 13 Nov 2006, 2:11 p.m., in response to message #25 by Karl-Ludwig Butte We've had a standard for these for a long time of 1 bit B&W 300 dpi. I've been emailing the same "form letter" on scanning and uploading to scan volunteers for about 7 years. The color stuff is new and probably doesn't apply to any of these. 1 bit B&W is a lot easier because you don't need to worry about page edges going gray if they're just a little bit away from the glass. It's very forgiving.

Re: Here's the list so far Message #27 Posted by Marcus von Cube, Germany on 13 Nov 2006, 6:44 p.m., in response to message #26 by Dave Hicks Quote: 1 bit B&W is a lot easier because you don't need to worry about page edges going gray if they're just a little bit away from the glass. It's very forgiving. But 1 bit B&W has its problems if the original isn't perfectly B&W itself. When I scan documents, I mostly use grayscale (256 or 16 levels) to allow for some antialiasing. This makes reading a lot easier. You can even reduce the resolution to, let's say 200 dpi, and the overall quality is still better then 1 bit B&W. You milage may vary if it comes to printing on a B&W printer... Marcus

Re: Here's the list so far Message #28 Posted by Dave Hicks on 13 Nov 2006, 9:18 p.m., in response to message #27 by Marcus von Cube, Germany The user's library programs that I have are xerox'd typewritten documents and they scan well (and compactly) at 300 DPI 1 bit. However, the standard email that I've sent out to scan volunteers has always included the options of 200 dpi 4 bit gray for manuals and 24 bit color for brochures. I think the text is usually better at 300 dpi 1 bit than 200 dpi gray and it compresses to about half the size, but I leave it to the person doing the scanning since they have the manual, scanner and the software so they're in a much better position to judge the alternatives.

Re: Here's the list so far Message #29 Posted by Etienne Victoria on 13 Nov 2006, 5:12 p.m., in response to message #24 by Dave Hicks Thanks Dave, I'll use this list to entertain sleepless nights after busy days... See you in "incoming" :-) Etienne

Re: I wish these were available to the HP user community...old programs... Message #30 Posted by David Ramsey on 10 Nov 2006, 10:29 a.m., in response to message #1 by Gene Click here, then click on the link that says "Click here if you're looking for old HP and TI calculator programs and documents." There are several hundred PDFs representing scanned programs that Gene Wright sent me a couple of years back, for HP-41s, 67s/97s, and some TI-52 and 59 programs. This is a tiny server, and if there are too many people trying to download files, you may be presented with an FTP login dialog. If so, try again later.

Old programs- literature survey Message #31 Posted by Charles on 12 Nov 2006, 4:01 p.m., in response to message #30 by David Ramsey I put together a spreadsheet with literature references to all the HP calculator programmes I could find. These have an engineering slant. I wouldn't claim that it was complete but would be a good start and am happy for it to go on this site. I also have copies of a number of the original articles but this would probably cause copyright problems if these were scanned.

Re: Old programs- literature survey Message #32 Posted by Paul on 13 Nov 2006, 4:43 a.m., in response to message #31 by Charles I have collected hundreds of programs for HP65,67 and 41 simply by contacting the original authors, some of who had not changed address since the 1970's. I strongly recommend, we, enthusiast for vintage hp programs look through copies of contributed programs catalogs and track the authors down. Yes, some have moved house but usually not very far. Others are deceased but most are still alive and kicking (or should that be clicking?)time is running out and we need to get a move on. I suggest, Once you make contact, to ask them very nicely if they would mind donating their programs. Most of the time they are astonished that someone would take an interest in this old stuff. One author I contacted gladly sent me what he had left (Approx.350 programs, one HP67 program was 9 cards long!!). He lamented that I could have had thousands if I had called just 18 months earlier, they had been thrown out with the rubbish, so very very sad. I intend to donate the programs I have to this site in the near future. Dave, keep up the fantastic work, it is most appreciated. Paul Edited: 13 Nov 2006, 4:52 a.m.

Re: Old programs- literature survey Message #33 Posted by Karl-Ludwig Butte on 14 Nov 2006, 2:59 a.m., in response to message #31 by Charles Hi Charles, Quote: and am happy for it to go on this site I'm very interested in your list. Do I understand it right that it is already available here at MoHP or would you mind sending it to me ? Thanks for your answer in advance. Kind regrads Karl

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