The Museum of HP Calculators

HP Forum Archive 15

 Anomaly with the HP 33sMessage #1 Posted by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. on 7 Mar 2006, 10:25 a.m. I was getting acquainted with my new hp 33s when I stumbled on a difference from many earlier scientific calculators manufactured by H-P. Machines such as the HP-45, HP-27, HP-67, HP-41, HP-11C, HP-12C, HP-15C and HP-32S will all accept a SUM - command immediately after a CLEAR SUM command, return a -1 to the display, and store negative values in the statistics registers relative to those which would have been stored if a SUM + command had been used. The hp 33s will NOT accept a SUM - command immediately after a CLEAR SUM command. Furthermore, if with those earlier machines the user enters a CLEAR SUM command, stores a positive fractional value in n, and then enters a SUM - command the machines will return one minus the fractional value to the display, store one minus the fractional value in n and store negative values in the remaining statistics registers relative to those which would have been stored if a SUM + had been used. The hp 33s will not accept a SUM - command if the existing value stored in n is less than one. Interesting!

 HP 33S -- validation of n for STATMessage #2 Posted by Karl Schneider on 8 Mar 2006, 12:00 a.m.,in response to message #1 by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. Hi, Palmer -- Hmm, interesting discovery. I compared my 33S (a "bad display with bugs" unit from 2004) with my 32SII from 2001. The 32SII seems to do no validation whatsoever of the summation value n in register 28 (accessed indirectly). So, any operation is permitted, including calculation of standard deviations and mean averages, as long as "SQRT(NEG)" is not attempted. The 33S seems to include some validation of n: Sigma- is rejected without informational message whenever n is not a positive integer, but Sigma+ is always accepted. Calculation of standard deviations is rejected when n is not a positive integer, but calculation of mean averages is not. The reason for this apparently-inconsistent approach to validation may be that the summation functions can be used for purposes other than statistics. Also, the statistical-summation registers could be used as scratch registers, accessed indirectly. For example, integrals and estimated error of subintervals of an integrand can be respectively summed using Sigma+ as they are calculated. Requirement of positive-integer n could needlessly interfere with that. (The integration-by-subinterval technique is is fully described in the HP-34C manual and HP-15C Advanced Functions Handbook.) Division by a non-integer n in a mean average can be useful, also. Still, a message should be displayed when Sigma- is rejected. -- KS Edited: 8 Mar 2006, 1:50 a.m.

 Error indications, etc.Message #3 Posted by Palmer O. anson, Jr. on 8 Mar 2006, 11:44 a.m.,in response to message #2 by Karl Schneider Once I had rebuilt a battery pack I was able to see that my HP-33C and HP-38C operated in the same manner as most of the other machines. I did find that my HP-28S will not accept a SUM - immediately after a CLEAR SUM. Instead, it beeps and displays the message “Nonexistent SUM DAT”. That is consistent with your idea that a machine should provide an indication if it does not perform a command. Of course, the hp 33s does provide an indication that something is amiss if you try to do a SUM - immediately after a CLR SUM since it does not return a -1 to the display. I found the following statement under the paragraph “Value Limits” on page 204 of the HP-27 Owner’s Handbook: “You cannot have a negative number of entries for statistical problems. That is, you cannot key three inputs into SUM +, then subtract out four with SUM -. “ That didn’t agree with the tests I had run earlier so I cleared the statistics registers and did two SUM - commands with 2 in the Y register and 3 in the display register. Then I pressed the meanx key and saw +3.00 in the display. I pressed x<>y and saw +2.00 in the display. This seems to make sense since n = -2. I stored +2 in register 4 which sets n to +2. I pressed the mean x key and saw -3.00 in the display. I pressed x<>y and saw -2 in the display. Again, that makes sense. I got the same results with my HP-22.

 HP 33S -- validation of n for STAT ("Error indications")Message #4 Posted by Karl Schneider on 10 Mar 2006, 12:41 a.m.,in response to message #3 by Palmer O. anson, Jr. Palmer stated, Quote: I did find that my HP-28S will not accept a SUM - immediately after a CLEAR SUM. Instead, it beeps and displays the message “Nonexistent SUM DAT”. That is consistent with your idea that a machine should provide an indication if it does not perform a command. Of course, the hp 33s does provide an indication that something is amiss if you try to do a SUM - immediately after a CLR SUM since it does not return a -1 to the display. Statistical calculations offered by RPL-based HP-28/48/49 models and by the HP-17B/17BII/27S are different from most other models. The 17/27/28/48/49 store each datum as it is entered -- unlike the other models, which only accumulate six summation values as each datum is entered. Thus, it is quite logical for the 17/27/28/48/49 to refuse a SIGMA- operation if there are no stored data. However, refusing an operation without an explicit message (as the HP-33S can do for SIGMA-) is not a very good "indication". KinHPo's attempt in the HP-33S to perform some validation of the summation value n before accepting SIGMA- or standard deviation operations is perhaps commendable, but of questionable practical value. Use of only CLEAR SIGMA, SIGMA+, and SIGMA- will yield integer values of n, which can be modified only by indirect access of register 28. There's not much reason to alter the value of n, but the user may have had a specific purpose for doing so. -- KS Edited: 10 Mar 2006, 1:20 a.m.

 A reason to change n and use SUM- after CL SUMMessage #5 Posted by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. on 10 Mar 2006, 10:20 p.m.,in response to message #4 by Karl Schneider This will explain why I was interested in the different way that my hp 33s responds to a SUM - command which appears after a CL SUM command but before a SUM + command has occurred. It will also show an application where it makes sense to change the value of n other than with SUM + and SUM - commands. A quadratic solver which appears on pages 208-211 of the HP-15C Advanced Functions Handbook uses a so-called "tricky property of the SUM + and SUM - commands" in a way that is equivalent to carrying twenty significant digits in the calculation of the discrimiinant. As I was working my way through the hp 33s user's guide I found the following statement on page 1-19: "... During some complicated internal calculations, the calculator uses 15-digit precision for immediate results. ..." That sounded a lot like the "tricky properties". I did some tests that convinced me that the "tricky properties" were available in the hp 33s. I then decided to try to translate the HP-15C program for use with the hp 33s. Steps 011 through 025 of the HP-15C program are 011 CLEAR SUM 012 RCL 8 013 STO 7 014 RCL / I 015 RND 016 RCL I 017 SUM - 018 RCL 9 019 x <> 7 020 x <> y 021 RCL 8 022 SUM - 023 R Down 024 SUM - 025 RCL 7 and so on where there is an additional SUM - at step 052 and there are no SUM + commands in the loop. That means that the HP-15C is able to accept inputs to the statistics registers which would cause the number of entries (n) to become negative. The statistics routines in the HP-41, the HP-32S and several other HP machines can also do that. The statistics routine in the hp 33s cannot. After a little thought it occurred to me that hp 33s routine may not care how the value for the number of entries (n) had been accumulated in register 28. To prove that I did a CL SUM and followed it by three SUM + commands where 2 was in the y register and 3 was in the x register. I recalled the means and saw the values 3 and 2 as expected. Then I stored 28 (the number of the statistics register which holds the value of n) in I, entered a 3 in the display, and did a STO+ (i). I recalled the means and saw the values 1.5 and 1.0 . To make a long story short I was able to successfully translate the HP-15C program for use on the hp 33s by storing a four for n in statistics register 28 after the CL SUM command and before the SUM - commands. The resulting program for the hp 33s with test cases appears in the Articles section as "A Cadillac Quadratic Solver for the hp 33s."

 SIGMA- on the HP-33S and your quadratic solverMessage #6 Posted by Karl Schneider on 11 Mar 2006, 1:18 a.m.,in response to message #5 by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. Palmer -- So that was the motivation! Congratulations are in order for a successful porting of some of the fine work in the HP-15C AFH. I suspect that the "tricky property" involves some internal numerical techniques to carry out products for the quadratic summations (X2, Y2, and XY) with minimal loss of accuracy. Also, I believe that the AFH program -- and your adaptation of it -- is a perfect illustration of the point I made earlier: Specifically, that the added "validation" of n for SUM- and standard deviation in the HP-33S was a misguided "enhancement". When the statistical-summation registers are employed only in their intended manner, using only CLEAR SUM, SUM+, and SUM-, n will be an integer. If the user never "deletes" more data than had been previously entered, n will remain non-negative. The value of n can be modified to an "invalid" value only by indirectly accessing register 28. As for disallowing SUM- for n not a positive integer: That won't prevent "improper use" of SUM-, whose purpose is to allow removal of erroneous or selected data from the summations. What if the user first enters the data 5, 3, and 7 using SUM+, then "deletes" the datum 8 using SUM-? That wouldn't be valid, yet the HP-33S would allow it. The HP calculators that were developed in-house do not impose misguided and ineffective restrictions on the summation functions. This allows users to fully exploit the functions as needed. Cases in point are the AFH program and summation of numerical integation over successive intervals. -- KS Edited: 13 Mar 2006, 4:10 a.m.

 Re: Anomaly with the HP 33sMessage #7 Posted by Antonio Maschio on 8 Mar 2006, 12:05 p.m.,in response to message #1 by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. My 33S (SN CNA 5150xxxx) does accept a SUM- after a CLEAR SUM command. Or, better, doesn't complain, and pushes 0 on TOS. Maybe it's a revised model? -- Antonio Maschio

 Re: Anomaly with the HP 33sMessage #8 Posted by Palmer . Hanson, Jr. on 8 Mar 2006, 2:18 p.m.,in response to message #7 by Antonio Maschio Are you sure that anything is really happening in your machine? My hp 33s is S/N 53200443 presumably a later unit than yours. When I try to do the Sum - after the CLR SUM I get a zero returned to the display and no error indication. But, if I recall the statistics registers 28 through 33 I don't find that anything has been entered.

 Re: Anomaly with the HP 33sMessage #9 Posted by John Smitherman on 9 Mar 2006, 7:40 a.m.,in response to message #1 by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. Interesting find Palmer. I'm not sure that I have ever used the Sum - command immediately after the Clear Sum but it is good to know about this difference. It would be interesting to compare this behavior with other Kinpo and non-Kinpo calculators. In the 80's I worked between a 15c, 34c, 41cv and a 97. Some of those machines also issued a Clear x or Clear Stack when Clear Sum was used. I don't remember the details any longer but I had to be careful when moving around them. Regards, John

 Re: Anomaly with the HP 33sMessage #10 Posted by bill platt on 9 Mar 2006, 9:43 a.m.,in response to message #9 by John Smitherman 15c and 11c clear the stack.

 Re: Anomaly with the HP 33sMessage #11 Posted by John Smitherman on 11 Mar 2006, 1:59 p.m.,in response to message #10 by bill platt I just tested my 34c and it does not clear the stack after a Clear Sum. John

 Clearing stack with CLEAR SIGMAMessage #12 Posted by Karl Schneider on 10 Mar 2006, 1:12 a.m.,in response to message #9 by John Smitherman John Smitherman posted, Quote: In the 80's I worked between a 15c, 34c, 41cv and a 97. Some of those machines also issued a Clear x or Clear Stack when Clear Sum was used. As Bill Platt said, the HP-11C and HP-15C clear the stack when CLEAR SIGMA is performed. The HP-10C and HP-12C do, also. However, the HP-32S, HP-32SII, and HP-33S do not. Also, the HP-41C* and HP-42S do not. Why is this? Here's the answer: The Voyagers (10, 11, 12, 15) and many earlier models have no "clear stack" function, and they calculate sample standard deviation on both the X- and Y-data when the "s" function is performed. So, if "debris" is entered from the y-register into Y-data when only X-data is explicitly entered, the standard deviation function may fail entirely due to SQRT(NEG) caused by the bogus Y-datum. Automatically clearing the stack when clearing summation registers for entry of data will help prevent erroneous results. (A user complained about failed standard deviation in the Forum several archives ago, when he did a calculation that placed results on the stack in the midst of data entry. The fix is to zero out the registers containing the contaminated and unneeded summations involving Y-data.) The HP-32S, HP-32SII, and HP-33S calculate standard deviation separately for X-data and Y-data using distinct functions, so these models are not affected by the potential error. The HP-41C* and HP-42S calculate sample standard deviation on both the X- and Y-data, as the Voyagers do. However, they also provide a function "CLST" to clear the stack in a separate operation. So, there's a usually a valid reason for everything you see on these calculators... -- KS

 Re: Clearing stack with CLEAR SIGMAMessage #13 Posted by Valentin Albillo on 10 Mar 2006, 6:27 a.m.,in response to message #12 by Karl Schneider Hi, Karl: Karl posted: "So, there's a usually a valid reason for everything you see on these calculators.." A further valid reason for having CLEAR SIGMA to also perform CLST in the HP-11C and most specially the HP-15C is that by doing so you free an additional location on the keyboard to include yet another function. This is really important for the HP-15C, as the number of keys is the same as all other Voyagers, yet it has many more functions to assign to them. Using separate keys for CLEAR SIGMA and CLST would be a tremendous waste, and would probably mean that CLST wouldn't be included. Also, using the very same physical key for as many distinct functions as possible is mandatory. Would you believe that, in the HP-15C, the [+] key is used for seven different purposes ? :-) Best regards from V.

 11C/15C keyboard layout and functionsMessage #14 Posted by Karl Schneider on 11 Mar 2006, 5:21 p.m.,in response to message #13 by Valentin Albillo Hi, Valentin -- Yes, indeed the layout and organization of the HP-15C keyboard (based, of course, on that of the HP-11C) is an absolute marvel of coherent thought and organization. Even after adding a substantial amount of functionality for the 15C, the grouping of functions on the keyboard was actually improved somewhat over the 11C. Note the following improvements on the 15C over the 11C: All statistical functions (except CLEAR SIGMA) are on the bottom row All three conversion functions are side-by-side Pi and its shift key are closer together x<>(i) and x<>I were replaced by a more-versatile "x<> " Another bit of good thinking was to place SOLVE above the "divide" key, which is used for solving an exactly-determined linear system of equations. So, if one could revisit 1981-1982 to improve the HP-15C (as well as other Voyagers, respectively), how could that have been done without changing its hardware or paradigm in any way? Fixed specifications include the following: Voyager packaging; 7-segment, 10-digit display; RAM; ROM space; microprocessor; and battery. We've discussed this before, a few archives ago, with the question framed a bit differently. I can think of only the following improvements to the HP-15C within the limitations I have specified: Place LN and ex on keys 12 and 13, rather than ex and 10x This was implemented on the successor Pioneer-series models. Perhaps there was a pleasing symmetry with ex, 10x, and yx side-by-side. Also, keycodes 11, 12, 13, 22, 23, 24, and 25 all had blue-shifted inverses of transcedental functions (maybe that was the reason!). However, LN is just more useful than 10x. Show A, B, C, D, and E in program keycodes where appropriate (for labels and matrix identifiers), rather than the corresponding positional keycodes 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15. This was implemented on the Pioneer-series HP-20S, but might have run into issues of development time and ROM space for the HP-15C. Move CLx above the backarrow as a yellow-shifted function, put "SHOW" or "MANT" as the blue-shifted function, and perform "CLEAR PREFIX" as on the HP-41 and the Pioneer-series models: by re-pressing the shift key. Clearing a prefix key by performing a "no op" or "display mantissa" function was probably carried over from the LED-display Spice models such as the HP-34C, which had no annunciator for a shift key. I believe that considerable 34C microcode was ported to the 11C, which in turn was used in the 15C. That's about it. For what the HP-15C was, those are about the only feasible improvements I can think of -- absolute perfection was nearly achieved. Certainly, a few other functions would have been useful, such x-estimator (present on the HP-10C and HP-12C), y1/x, x2, and "ALL" display format. However, there just wan't available space, at least without resorting to key combinations that were arcane, unintuitive, or inconvenient. BTW: What are the seven uses of the [+] operation? I can identify four, six, or eight, depending on how one is counting: Two real scalars Two complex scalars Two matrices One matrix and one real scalar (in either order) STO + (real scalar to numbered register or matrix element) RCL + (real scalar from numbered register or matrix element) Best regards, -- KS Edited: 11 Mar 2006, 5:28 p.m.

 Re: 11C/15C keyboard layout and functionsMessage #15 Posted by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. on 11 Mar 2006, 9:37 p.m.,in response to message #14 by Karl Schneider I don't have an HP-15C and as a result don't have a manual. I purchased the HP-15C Advanced Functions Handbook after I saw it mentioned in Kahan's paper "Mathematics Written in Sand". When I decided to translate the quadratic solvers I ran into a problem -- commands such as g TEST 2 didn't help me understand what was happening. I had to analyze the programs and look other places in the book in order to decipher what was happening. So my question is, why did they do it that way? It seems to me that it would be possible to put the actual commands in the display, just like the 32S and 33s.

 Re: 11C/15C keyboard layout and functionsMessage #16 Posted by Valentin Albillo on 11 Mar 2006, 9:55 p.m.,in response to message #15 by Palmer O. Hanson, Jr. Hi, Palmer: Palmer posted: " So my question is, why did they do it that way? It seems to me that it would be possible to put the actual commands in the display, just like the 32S and 33s."" As it has been commented a number of times, they did it that way because, as you know, the HP-15C doesn't have alphanumeric capabilities, so there's no way to execute a function by spelling its name, you must press the assigned key, which means 12 key locations would be needed to make available the 12 implemented logical tests. Due to the many distinct functions available in the HP-15C and the small, fixed number of keys, wasting 12 key locations wasn't an option and instead the two commonest tests were asigned to individual locations, while the 10 remaining ones where assigned to the TEST prefix, thus saving as much as 9 key locations for other functions. This explains why they weren't put on the keyboard. As for why they weren't put "in the display, just like the 32S and 33S" it might have to do with the simple fact that, as stated, the HP-15C does not have alphanumeric capabilities, plus it only has a 7-segment LCD display. It's just too hard (physically impossible some might say ...) to display "X less than or equal to Y ?" under such constraints, don't you think ? Best regards from V.

 Re: 11C/15C keyboard layout and functionsMessage #17 Posted by Valentin Albillo on 11 Mar 2006, 9:37 p.m.,in response to message #14 by Karl Schneider Hi, Karl: Karl posted: "Show A, B, C, D, and E in program keycodes where appropriate (for labels and matrix identifiers), rather than the corresponding positional keycodes 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15. This was implemented on the Pioneer-series HP-20S, but might have run into issues of development time and ROM space for the HP-15C." It was also implemented in a Voyager as well, the HP-16C, which showed A,B,C,D,E, and F instead of the numeric keycode. As for ROM space, yes, the HP-15C had serious problems with this, with features being suggested and still awaiting implementation when they were absolutely out of it. I think that's why they didn't include the much more useful "Create Identity Matrix" function instead of the existing "Initialize Matrix Indexes" (MATRIX 1), which can be implemented in three steps (1, STO 0, STO 1) and thus only saves two, apart from the marginal benefit of leaving the stack unaltered. While programming the HP-15C, I've needed many times to create an identity matrix and so always missed that particular function dearly. "Certainly, a few other functions would have been useful, such x-estimator (present on the HP-10C and HP-12C), y1/x, x2, and "ALL" display format" The HP-15C does have the x2 function, look under "square root". "BTW: What are the seven uses of the [+] operation?" The six you mention, plus [ON]-[+] initiates a self-test operation. Best regards from V.

 Re: 15C/16C keyboard layout and functionsMessage #18 Posted by Karl Schneider on 11 Mar 2006, 11:14 p.m.,in response to message #17 by Valentin Albillo Hi, Valentin -- Thanks for the response. Just a few clarifications: Quote: It (single letters in keycodes) was also implemented in a Voyager as well, the HP-16C, which showed A,B,C,D,E, and F instead of the numeric keycode. Indeed, but the HP-16C always shows A, B, C, D, E, or F -- even for the functions that do not involve the label or hexadecimal digit. This is because, no doubt, that the letters are prominently double-shot molded on the keys, making a more visible identifier (like 0 through 9) than the two-digit code. The HP-20S and HP-21S, however, make the functional distinction in the displayed keycodes. Quote: The HP-15C does have the x2 function, look under "square root". Oops, an incomplete statement on my part. I meant, "x2 as an unshifted function." Practically all HP calc's after the HP-35 had x2, but few until the HP-33S included it as unshifted. It is used so frequently... Quote: The six you mention, plus [ON]-[+] initiates a self-test operation. I considered that one, but that's not really an addition operation, per se. Regarding the HP-16C: How might that one have been improved prior to release in 1982? I'm not an expert on required computer-science function set, but it would have been nice if it had the same RAM as the HP-15C, for purposes of programming. The calc is very useful for conversion of data formats, but custom programs are required. It is my understanding (from an Eric Smith post?) that the 15C had two chips for user RAM, whereas the other Voyagers had only one. I'm not sure if the microcode for 16C's automatic memory reallocation (similar to that of the HP-11C and HP-34C) would have complicated the addition of more RAM. Best regards, -- KS Edited: 12 Mar 2006, 12:15 a.m.

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