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HP Forum Archive 15

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ALG/RPN (and more) in the new Platinum
Message #1 Posted by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil) on 7 Nov 2005, 2:54 p.m.

Hi, all;

I just grabbed a new HP12C Platinum (with parenthesis, back-arrow and undo) and I realised that, now, neither [f][ALG] nor [f][RPN] clear stack register contents. Also, [f][PRGM] in normal, RUN mode cause the program pointer to return to step 000. Finally, if the calculator is in ALGebraic mode and you enter interest rate through [g][12] or number of periods through [g][12] and immediately after that you try to compute the unknown financial value, you no longer need to press the same key twice.

The IRR issue for small values is also corrected.

If we consider that these were particular characteristics of the previous HP12C Platinum, the new one has its own set. And it is considerably fast, though.

Anything else being observed with the new model?

Cheers.

Luiz (Brazil)

Edited: 7 Nov 2005, 2:56 p.m.

      
Re: ALG/RPN (and more) in the new Platinum
Message #2 Posted by Gene on 7 Nov 2005, 4:21 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil)

Hi Luiz!

1) ALG/RPN not clearing the stack...that's a feature, not a bug :-)

2) I believe the f PRGM in run mode does what it did on the black/gold 12c now. Don't have that one handy, but I think that's correct.

3) Yep...this is/was a bug fix.

4) Small IRR...yep, that means my friends in Brazil can rest easy. :-)

Other than #1, this is as the black/gold 12c, I think. That's a good thing.

Keep an eye open for a good set of games written for the new 12cp from Tony Hutchins. They will show up in future Datafiles.

How much do 12cp's cost in Brazil?

Hope all is well! Gene

            
Re: ALG/RPN (and more) in the new Platinum
Message #3 Posted by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil) on 7 Nov 2005, 5:45 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by Gene

Hi Gene, guys; (I confess I was about to write you an e-mail, but I missed the opportunity...)

The HP12C Platinum costs about R$420,00 in the regular, official market. If main commercial taxes are deducted, it goes to regular R$220,00. In some circumstances (not to be discussed here, though...), you can buy one for about R$270. I am not sure if the new version is already available here, neither in regular nor in alternate commerce.

About the IRR issue: thank you, Gene, for your invaluable help.

Best regards.

Luiz (Brazil)

Edited: 7 Nov 2005, 5:47 p.m.

                  
Re: ALG/RPN (and more) in the new Platinum
Message #4 Posted by Gene on 7 Nov 2005, 6:17 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil)

Well, you (or some friends down in Brazil) found it - I didn't do much of anything! And, I think there are some instructions based on your suggested fix available from HP somewhere online... :-)

What's the equivalent US cost of those 12cp's?

                        
Re: ALG/RPN (and more) in the new Platinum
Message #5 Posted by Charlie O. on 7 Nov 2005, 8:55 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Gene

currently 2.2 real per usd.

see here:

http://www.oanda.com/converter/classic?user=advsport&lang=en

                  
Re: ALG/RPN (and more) in the new Platinum
Message #6 Posted by bill platt on 7 Nov 2005, 10:18 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil)

Hi Luiz,

R$100 tax on R$220? Ouch! Wasn't the Aerospace business supposed to make so much money from exports that taxes like that could be eliminated?

                        
OT: prices of calculators in Brazil (was: ALG/RPN (and more) in the new Platinum)
Message #7 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 8 Nov 2005, 12:14 a.m.,
in response to message #6 by bill platt

Hi Bill, all;

in fact, but remember we're talking about Brazil. And some things happen in here that, although history may tell us a reason, only history would know this so-called reason. The problem is not exactly when the product leaves USA; in our case, the actual 'problem' resides in its delivery... Brazilian taxes over industrialized products (known here as IPI, or 'Imposto sobre Produto Industrializado') and others are, by themselves, so high that, in some cases, they go close to 50% of the final consumming COST, then we have commerce margin...

The fact is that most of the technology that is 'consummed' in Brazil is of foreign origin. I myself believe that as other countries have their own technology, we more than likely might also have ours, but in a moment in history where many countries were developping their own technology in many 'high-tech' areas, somehow Brazil decided that it would be less expensive to buy their final products instead of investing the same way inside here (reasons 'unknown'). I know other countries have done the same because of their own, very reasons, and that, in some cases, results were differently taken by their people. In our case, consumming foreign technology (no local equivalent, most cases) has its consequences...

(Please, in the following analysis, consider all references to product price as related to the HP12C Platinum) That's why a close to US$80 (US$105 is the MSRP, right?) product is regularly sold in Brazil for about R$450. If the straight current conversion is applied (US$1 ~= R$2.2) we have no more than R$176. The alternate commerce (final price: R$250) gives us a ~42% add-on, including profit and some expenses. The regular commerce (final price: R$450) asks for a ~156% add-on, that might include the regular commerce taxes (Brazil) + expenses + final profit. I know that final profit in terms of regular commerce is, depending on some circumstances, either lower or higher than that practiced in alternate commerce.

This is a very, very raw (and macro) analysis from the point of view of an engineer. Economists would see (and explain) it differently; in fact, terms like 'internal commerce protection' and 'incentive to local developments' would arise, but other considerations like 'extreme profit for those who only see profit' (not commerce, instead those who are interested on this scenario) would be intentionaly omitted. As this is a technology forum (not an economy one), I think that putting things straightly simple would be 'fitting them in'.

Oops! Wrote too much. Sorry! at least I hope it makes sense in all aspects, though. And I hope this elucidates a bit for you, Bill.

Please, forgive any typos (no spell checking).

Cheers.

Luiz (Brazil)

Edited: 8 Nov 2005, 12:22 a.m.

                              
Brazil Tech
Message #8 Posted by bill platt on 8 Nov 2005, 10:15 a.m.,
in response to message #7 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

Hi Luiz,

It's ironic that in fact Brazil had an HP factory that made 12c calculators.

I have flown on "Embraer" aeroplanes--made in Brazil. How much tax revenue comes from the Ariannespace launching facility?

Must be more of them.

We used to have our own manufacturing in the USA but we don't anymore. But we do have technology. But not for long. But we'll have something else I suppose. Or we will have a more balanced economy at a lower standard of living (most likely outcome--our standard is pretty excessive!).

It sounds like the Politicos in Brazil are doing what Politicos do best everywhere: hoodwinking. By making technology expensive, they dramatically slow growth. Without tools, one cannot build more tools. But someone is getting rich on this policy--just follow the money trail. My bet is Big Landowners-big agrarian?

We have the same sort of hoodwinking here. A recent (this week) proposal to modify a major portion of the federal income tax with regards to deductions of real estate interest payments has led to this huge resistance from the "realtors" and the "experts" who all put their arms up and say how it will "harm" the average american. And yet they quote no figures. When I run the numbers, I see benefits for 90% of the population, and increased taxes for the richest 10%.

The powerful like to pretend they are our friends and protectors. Like Great France--the nanny state par excellence. Too bad they have so many slums. Their (the politicos) motives are impure as is always the case.

But I digress :-)

I use an HP to do all my financial calculations :^)

                                    
Re: Brazil Tech
Message #9 Posted by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil) on 8 Nov 2005, 1:49 p.m.,
in response to message #8 by bill platt

Hi, Bill;

Quote:
It sounds like the Politicos in Brazil are doing what Politicos do best everywhere: hoodwinking. By making technology expensive, they dramatically slow growth. Without tools, one cannot build more tools. But someone is getting rich on this policy--just follow the money trail. My bet is Big Landowners-big agrarian?
Exactly what I tell my students in order to try showing them that technology ownership goes beyond financial power. About the big landowners, I guess that their way of enhancing their ownership is a little bit different. as you mention, Politicos are the ones to take advantage.

About Embraer: I know some guys that have already worked there, and most of their design is local. Part of the technology happens to be developped here, but I cannot tell the percentage of nacional technology in each airplane.

I'd go a bit ahead about HP fasctories in Brazil. Internal policy and foreign interests moved factories from here to elsewhere. Once we know how to deal with technology, we are able to go ahead.

Oops! Once again I'm driftting...

Cheers.

Luiz (Brazil)

                                          
Re: Brazil Tech (correction)
Message #10 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 8 Nov 2005, 10:26 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Vieira, L. C. (Brazil)

Hi, all;

because I logged in in a different computer, I was not able to edit previous post (couldn`t remember password). Please, replaced last paragraph for the one below.

Quote:
I'd go a bit ahead about HP factories in Brazil. Internal policy and foreign interests moved factories from here to elsewhere. Once one knows how to deal with technology, he'd be able to go ahead. Unfortunately it id not happen this very way here. And the HP12C/Platinum are produced in other countries, now. You may have seen that the Brazilian units are not that bad...
Thanks.

Luiz (Brazil)

Edited: 8 Nov 2005, 10:27 p.m.

                                    
Re: Brazil Tech
Message #11 Posted by Vassilis Prevelakis on 9 Nov 2005, 4:36 a.m.,
in response to message #8 by bill platt

bill platt wrote: 
> How much tax revenue comes from the Ariannespace launching facility?

What "arianespace" launching facility. Arianespace have a launch site in Kuru, but thats not in Brasil, its in French Guyana.

Brasil has its own launch capability.

**vp

                                          
Ariannespace
Message #12 Posted by bill platt on 9 Nov 2005, 7:36 a.m.,
in response to message #11 by Vassilis Prevelakis

Hi Vassilis,

Thanks for the clarification!

                                          
Re: Brazil Tech [OT]
Message #13 Posted by Arnaud Amiel on 9 Nov 2005, 10:24 a.m.,
in response to message #11 by Vassilis Prevelakis

Quote:
bill platt wrote: 
> How much tax revenue comes from the Ariannespace launching facility?

What "arianespace" launching facility. Arianespace have a launch site in Kuru, but thats not in Brasil, its in French Guyana.

Brasil has its own launch capability.


Actually I have met a lot of people who do not understand this. Kuru is in France. French Guyana is not an independant country.

Arnaud, always amased to realise that France has border with Brazil

Edited: 9 Nov 2005, 10:37 a.m.


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