HP Forum Archive 14

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Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #1 Posted by Joe Edwards on 10 May 2004, 9:18 p.m. Hello folks, I have posted on and off here for about a year or so. Mostly I just lurk and try to gain as much insight as I can into the HP calcs. It seems I have a problem for which I hope everyone can provide some good advice. First, I am working on a dual degree in mathematics and geography, with a dual minor of japanese and secondary education. Yes, I will probably end up teaching math at the high school level. In 1988 or 89, I purchased my first HP calculator from the UTA bookstore. I didn't really know anything about the machine, but it seemed like a quality product compared to what else was being sold. That calculator stayed with me until 2002 with the original batteries finally being replaced in 1999 (10 or 11 years..wow). How I miss that little calculator. Anyhow, it wasn't until 2001 or 2002 that I learned of the history of the HP calculator products. It is difficult to accept that I missed out on a great opportunity to use these machines as I was just a little young and I left college back in 1990. Had I known about the 15c, the 41c/v/x models, I would have jumped at the opportunity to own one. But, at that time I was still playing around with the Atari and Amiga computers. And we all know how much of a foothold Commodore and Atari have on the computer industry today! :) Now I am back in college working on the math and geography degrees. The most common calculator is the TI 8* models. I cut my teeth on the 83+ and owned a 89 for a short time (no log button...grrrrr). While these two machines are fine...the 89 moreso than the 83, as I like the symbolic manipulation capabilities of the 89. I feel as if I am missing out on something. In fact, I recently bought a used 49g and have been using it for about a week. I prefer it over the 49g+. Those rubber keys are great...SERIOUSLY...call me crazy. But, it is so much slower than the 49g+. :( Okay, here is what I need to figure out. What do I really NEED for my degree? Maple and mathematica are right out for the next year or so...simply too expensive. Plus, my university doesn't even allow calculators in the first two calculus classes, and I agree with that idea. There really doesn't seem to be a need for them right now, other than to check my work. I guess I could just pick up a 33s and a 49g+ and call it a day. Get the most current hardware and be happy with it all. OR... Should I consider looking at the older RPN equipment such as a 32sII, a 42s, a 41c something or other, and a 48gx with Alg48? For quick calculations, it is a pain to pull out the big honking graphing calc, so I want a smaller scientific one to use as a backup machine. Am I being unreasonable to consider the use of a 32sII, 42s, 41c, or 15c versus the current models? Is the old 48GX just too dated? Money isn't too much of an option as my wife is a Pharmacist and therefore we make a decent living. So, should I look at these older machines? Did I truly miss out on a bygone opportunity with the vintage HPs in 80's and 90's? Is it worth the effort to even consider using them? Any and All opinions are welcome. Thank you for your help and consideration. Joe

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #2 Posted by Johann on 10 May 2004, 9:29 p.m., in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards I am currently using a 48gx with tds surveying software and I love it. I also use the hp 33s which is a newer RPN but it is a great tool to me. I hope my next purchase is a 42s! I am finishing a major in civil technology which has eng. math courses such as staics and dynamics, strength of materails and etc. I have switched from TI calcs to HP and I love the results. Thats just my opinion.

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #3 Posted by Les Bell [Sydney] on 10 May 2004, 9:53 p.m., in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards Quote: Maple and mathematica are right out for the next year or so...simply too expensive. They might be out, but Octave might not. See http://www.octave.org/ . It runs on Linux, naturally, but there also appear to be binaries for Windows. Best, --- Les Bell, RHCE, CISSP [http://www.lesbell.com.au]

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #4 Posted by Joe Edwards on 10 May 2004, 10:11 p.m., in response to message #3 by Les Bell [Sydney] I should have made it clear that I really have no desire to buy any laptop to run such a program at school. I commute 110 miles, round trip, and therefore don't have access to my home computer til the evening. I need a graphical solution at school, but I also have a (misplaced?) interest in this old technology. Why? No clue, as I didn't even know of its existance til two years ago. I guess my question should partially be, "is it of any importance anymore?" Is it simply too late to be learning to program a 48gx or (better yet!!!!) a 41c model? Joe

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #5 Posted by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen on 11 May 2004, 4:49 a.m., in response to message #4 by Joe Edwards The HP 49g+ has about everything that the earlier models since 28C have. No need to buy an old model to learn programming. You may want to leran ARM assembler with the 49g+. The 49g+ is very fast compared to the older models. I recommend sticking with it. BUT From the old models you may want to buy a HP-41CX or a HP-42S OR You may want to buy a HrastProgrammer's emulator for HP 49G (yes the older slower sister - the emulators do not work with the new 49g+) You could then use both the 41CX & 42S using a 49G (which has Flash to keep your work) That would/is personally my preferred choise, BUT (again) nothing beats the joy of using the good old HP-41CX You can add HP-IL, use Clonix etc for machine language development - do synthetic programming. THUS I revert to 1) use 49g+ for work 2) use 41CX for fun & learning [VPN]

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #6 Posted by HrastProgrammer on 11 May 2004, 8:10 a.m., in response to message #5 by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen You may want to buy a HrastProgrammer's emulator for HP 49G (yes the older slower sister - the emulators do not work with the new 49g+) I just cannot resist ... updated versions of HP-41X, HP-42X (EASY and LITE) and HP-71X are happily working on HP-49G+ since this weekend (and since I managed to fix a lot of incompatibility issues between HP-48/49 and HP-49G+). Watch this forum for an announcement in a few days ...

Great news! Sign me up :-) Message #7 Posted by Gene on 12 May 2004, 9:34 a.m., in response to message #6 by HrastProgrammer Thanks for the effort. Using the 49g+ is so much more pleasant than the old 49g. Gene

It's not too late. Message #8 Posted by Wayne Stephens on 11 May 2004, 7:31 a.m., in response to message #4 by Joe Edwards Joe, In my opinion it is NEVER too late to learn to use the 41C series. They are easy to program (more difficult to program efficiently) and they are fun. They are also sturdy and relatively easy to repair and keep running (at least the "full-nut" versions are). I've been using HP calcs for over 20 years and own about 18 of them. For some reason (I really do not know why), I just got involved in the 41 series in the last few months. I have been playing with a 41C and a 41CV quite a bit recently, and I think they may be my favorite HP calculators of all time (seriously challenging the 42S for that honor). Take care. Wayne. PS - I also like the 48GX a lot and have no compelling reason to upgrade to the 48GII or 49G+ or whatever the latest is. The speed difference just isn't enough to entice me.

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #9 Posted by Les Bell [Sydney] on 11 May 2004, 7:45 a.m., in response to message #4 by Joe Edwards Quote: I should have made it clear that I really have no desire to buy any laptop to run such a program at school. I commute 110 miles, round trip, and therefore don't have access to my home computer til the evening. I need a graphical solution at school, but I also have a (misplaced?) interest in this old technology. Ah. . . I was assuming you already have the computer, and only the cost of the software was a barrier. . . Quote: I guess my question should partially be, "is it of any importance anymore?" Is it simply too late to be learning to program a 48gx or (better yet!!!!) a 41c model? Something is important if it will help you get the job done faster/easier/better. If a good calc is what it takes, then it's important. As for whether it's too late, I'd say a 41C/CV/CX with the manuals is easier to learn than the 48GX. It's a matter of the quality of the manuals: the 41 manuals are much better written, especially since the 48GX is so much more complex with a smaller manual. To me, the 41 series was the pinnacle, and the sweet spot that maximises the ratio of power over complexity. Best, --- Les Bell. RHCE, CISSP [http://www.lesbell.com.au]

Re: Calculator Confusion....What I need vs. what I want Message #10 Posted by Steve S on 10 May 2004, 10:45 p.m., in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards Joe, if you want a relatively recent machine with power and expandability, buy an 48GX. Expansion cards can still be bought at Klotz and Cynox in Germany. calcpro.com still sells the old SparCom - DiVinci firmware like CalcPro, etc. and other 48 reference books. If you want a more "classic" RPN experience, buy a 42s.

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #11 Posted by Karl Schneider on 11 May 2004, 1:22 a.m., in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards Joe's questions: Quote: Should I consider looking at the older RPN equipment such as a 32sII, a 42s, a 41c something or other, and a 48gx with Alg48? Yes, I certainly think you should. My HP general-purpose scientific models include the 15C, 20S, 28C, 32SII, 33S, 34C, 41C/V/X, 42S, 48G, and 49G. In my opinion, the models introduced between 1979-88 represent HP's best-engineered, most useful and usable calculators -- no-nonsense tools for professionals at affordable prices. (Note that today's 33S traces its origins to the 32S of 1988.) Most of these models have classic RPN, instead of the syntax-intensive RPL of the 28/48/49 models. Quote: Am I being unreasonable to consider the use of a 32sII, 42s, 41c, or 15c versus the current models? Not at all. In fact, most of us would consider these four models the "best of the bunch": 15C -- Best combination of built-in capability and ease of use for routine problems. 32SII -- Compared to 15C, it is also easy to use, 12x as fast, having less advanced functionality but a few more built-in minor functions, and is much better for programming. The earlier 32S is comparable to the 32SII, but without equation editor and fraction math, and relies more on single-level menus. 42S -- Most capable built-in functionality by far, and as fast as 32SII, but less easy to use and has a hard-to-read display. 41CX -- Upgrade one with an Advantage ROM to provide the missing functionality that is built into the other three models. A fine classic tool, but can be cumbersome for some basic tasks, as compared to the others. The real strength of the 41 series is its expandability and peripheral support. Quote: Is the old 48GX just too dated? Not really. Although less intuitive and more complicated, it has some impressive built-in functionality that no RPN model has -- e.g., physical units, equation library, symbolic calculus, multiple integrals. Some of this functionality -- as well as the "serious-tool look and design" -- is missing from the 49 series (HP and KinHPo) and "new" KinHPo HP-48G+. Quote: So, should I look at these older machines? Did I truly miss out on a bygone opportunity with the vintage HPs in 80's and 90's? Is it worth the effort to even consider using them? The very late '70s, the '80s, and the early '90's was HP's "golden era" of calculators. I doubt that it will ever be that good again. You'll probably have to spend some money on eBay to find out -- I certainly have. -- Karl S. Edited: 11 May 2004, 1:32 a.m.

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #12 Posted by Chan Tran on 11 May 2004, 8:59 a.m., in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards If you know what you want then get what you want. Forget about what you need. I don't even think a calculator is needed for school.

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #13 Posted by Joe Edwards on 11 May 2004, 9:22 a.m., in response to message #12 by Chan Tran True. Just consider how many folks have study mathematics before the calc was invented. I think that a 41c/v/x is in the future.

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #14 Posted by Guillermo Castarés on 11 May 2004, 9:36 a.m., in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards As a collector I have the following models at hand: HP-97, HP-33E, HP-33C, HP-41C, HP-41CV, HP-41CX, HP-10, HP-11, HP-12, HP-15, HP-16, HP-28C, HP-28S, HP-32S, HP-32SII, HP-42S, HP-48SX, HP-48G. Since last year I´m studying for a MBA. I have a lot of calculators to choose, but I always take the HP-42S. I feel it is compact, simple, powerfull and easy to program formulas and simple algorithms (but it supports complex programs too). My second choice would be HP-41CX + Math module. I hope it helps. Guillermo

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #15 Posted by Bill Smith on 11 May 2004, 11:55 a.m., in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards my 2 cents... my favorite combo is a 15C and a palmtop. for pure calculator work a shirt pocket unit is always close to hand, and any of the 11C,15C,32S,42S excel in this regard. if graphing and advanced functionality in a portable form is important, consider adding a 95LX, 100LX, 200LX to your backpack. the builtin tools alone are great (123, RPN, Solver), and i have programmed in BASIC, fortran, & perl (C is available for those who know). also, emu41 and emu71 run on the 100LX and 200LX, maybe the 95LX as well? the 95LX has a lousy display compared to its successors (and limited PCMCIA), but they are readily available for under $50. i could have saved $3000 and skipped having a 486 in grad school...

Re: Calculator Confustion....What I need vs. what I want Message #16 Posted by Ron Ross on 11 May 2004, 1:39 p.m., in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards My favorite all around pocket calculator is the HP42s for power and features. However the 15c is a close second because it is just a bit smaller and fits in a pocket even better, and I like the horizontal layout better. But I like the extra power and RAM of the 42s MORE. A 41c series or Hp33s would do fine for a general pocket calculator, but I am spoiled to the extra RAM and long variable names on my (expanded) 42s.

Will someone please correct the spelling of "Confusion"? Message #17 Posted by Wayne Stephens on 12 May 2004, 8:19 a.m., in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards Thank you. Wayne.

Re: Will someone please correct the spelling of "Confusion"? Message #18 Posted by Joe Edwards on 12 May 2004, 10:17 a.m., in response to message #17 by Wayne Stephens I guess I was "confusted" when I wrote that title. Joe

Re(lated?): Have you read "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" yet? Message #19 Posted by Paul Brogger on 13 May 2004, 11:25 a.m., in response to message #17 by Wayne Stephens I got halfway through last night, and can heartily recommend it to all of the "sticklers" out there.

No. Message #20 Posted by Wayne Stephens on 13 May 2004, 1:23 p.m., in response to message #19 by Paul Brogger Paul, I have not heard of it. Is it a book? Who is the author? Take care. Wayne.

It's a book, by one Lynne Truss . . . Message #21 Posted by Paul Brogger on 13 May 2004, 4:35 p.m., in response to message #20 by Wayne Stephens . . . a book about the importance of proper (or at least well-thought-out) punctuation, of all things. IMHO, simply hilarious. I'm guessing a spelling-aware person (like you) might agree.

Got it! Message #22 Posted by Wayne Stephens on 14 May 2004, 6:33 a.m., in response to message #21 by Paul Brogger I just found it on ebay for a very reasonable price. It looks like a great read. Take care. Wayne.

Re: Re(lated?): Have you read "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" yet? Message #23 Posted by Les Bell [Sydney] on 15 May 2004, 6:16 a.m., in response to message #19 by Paul Brogger The original joke concerns the wombat, a native Australian mammal which eats roots, shoots and leaves. The line is said to also apply to the typical Australian male, who, when invited to his girlfriend's place for dinner: * eats (dinner) * roots (Australian slang for what some have termed "horizontal folk dancing") * shoots ( Umm, errr. . . reaches a climax) * leaves (thank you and good night) Best, --- Les [http://www.lesbell.com.au]

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