HP Forum Archive 14

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Sulphide during delivery? Message #1 Posted by Matthias on 5 Jan 2004, 2:51 p.m. Some weeks ago, I got a HP-10A for a really high price. I descided to get this special calculator, cause this unit came with box and manual. So I was very happy, when the parcel arrived. But not the "nightmare" started. When I opened the box I first saw, that the calulator was not mint as described in the auction. Ok, I know, that we can descuss about the word "mint" on a 30 year old calculator. Then I tried to start the calculator. Nothing happened. I descided to chance the battery pack with one of mine that I was shure itīs ok. It tok me 10 minutes to open the battery cover. Yes, the inside was full corroded and full of sulphide, also inside of the calculator. This is the internal battery pack And this the circuit board in the calc. Note: Itīs the second time, I have a problem with this seller (and he with me). I hope, he will also join this discussion. Matthias I contacted the seller, but he says, taht this was not 2 weeks ago when he tested the unit. It worked. I can not imagine, that this process happens so fast. What do you think? Matthias

Re: Sulphide during delivery? Message #2 Posted by Ron Ross on 5 Jan 2004, 3:23 p.m., in response to message #1 by Matthias Batteries can indeed explode. This would then leave a wet residue on the components that would then dry to a white salt later. Whether it could dry out and turn to a powder so so fast is suspect, but it is also much cooler and dry this time of year in the norther latitudes. This means that the moisture could dry out leaving a salt residue behind much faster than one might think. I have seen salts form very quickly under leaking cells hooked up to chargers. Bad cells can sometimes look good if connected to a charger. He may not have known. But I wouldn't have dealt with a seller a second time if I wasn't totally happy with him the first time around. No need to lecture, I'm sure.

Re: Sulphide during delivery? Message #3 Posted by gifron on 5 Jan 2004, 3:33 p.m., in response to message #1 by Matthias I once bought a 41CX in mint condition. I was assured that it worked, and due to the excellent cosmetic condition, have no reason to doubt that it did. When received, it did not work. Opening it up, I found that an N cell had leaked, corroding the circuit board. The leak was clearly very fresh, but the corrosion to the board was significant. I don't know about the insides of different batteries, but at least in this case, the corrosion seems to have occurred within a very short time frame. Now, I always request that the batteries/pack be removed from the calc and placed in a zip-lock bag, prior to shipping. For what it's worth...

Almost never mint Message #4 Posted by Mike on 5 Jan 2004, 4:01 p.m., in response to message #1 by Matthias "When I opened the box I first saw, that the calulator was not mint as described in the auction." I have found that the auctions that need the most questions, are the ones that say MINT. Rarely, are MINT calculators actually MINT. Especially, if they aren't being sold by another collector. People don't have a clue what MINT means. However, if this seller has done something like this before, there should be no reason to believe he didn't know this. I don't buy the fact that this worked when he had it and suddenly stops working and shows this massive corrosion. No way! The fact that the traces have corrosion on them suggests this was a long process of corroding. This wasn't something that suddenly happened. My hunch is this was never tested and the corrosion existed before it was shipped. What was the auction # so we can see how this was advertized? Calculator buying tips Edited: 5 Jan 2004, 4:22 p.m.

Re: Almost never mint Message #5 Posted by Matthias on 5 Jan 2004, 6:34 p.m., in response to message #4 by Mike Here is the link to the described auction (3061139552): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3061139552&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:DE:6 By the way: You can see, that the cells didnīt lead out shortly before, cause the sulphide was not wet, but like cristals Concerning the second problem: I usually give sellers more than one chance to proove their fairness. So, if I have a problem with a seller, I do not list him up automaticaly in my black list... but after the second time I do!

Re: Almost never mint Message #6 Posted by Gordon Dyer on 5 Jan 2004, 7:07 p.m., in response to message #5 by Matthias Hi Matthias, send me your email address and I will forward to you some correspodence which I had with the seller on this item.

Re: Sulphide during delivery? Message #7 Posted by Victor Koechli on 5 Jan 2004, 5:05 p.m., in response to message #1 by Matthias I doubt that this much corrosion can occur on the PCB traces in such a short time. I had a similar problem with a seller - I think most of us sooner or later make this kind of experience. I bought a HP-25C in 'good condition' and received a wreck - corroded battery compartment and PCB, calc not working, one battery contact broken, keyboard broken off from the front, and lower PCB-to-keyboard contacts mangled by it. As the electronics were intact, i eventually managed to get it up and running, but it took some effort. Can you provide a link to the auction? Cheers, Victor

What questions did HP members ask of this auction? Message #8 Posted by Mike on 5 Jan 2004, 6:33 p.m., in response to message #1 by Matthias I remember this auction. Remember that we questioned if it was really in MINT condition, since he was using HP Museum photos. Also, he said he has been contacted by bidders, to answer some questions about condition. It would be interesting if anyone on this forum inquired about corrosion possibility on this calculator. If you did and still have the email or response, it would be interesting to see what was sent. Edited: 6 Jan 2004, 9:18 a.m. after one or more responses were posted

Re: Ok, I have looked at the auction in question Message #9 Posted by Matthias on 5 Jan 2004, 6:39 p.m., in response to message #8 by Mike There were two batteries, one in the calc and a separate in paper box. The second is really ok, although it also leaked... But Iīm talking about the internal battery pack, cause that is important. Your questions are really good.. Letīs hope, that our seller can answer them..

Upon further thought Message #10 Posted by Mike on 5 Jan 2004, 6:53 p.m., in response to message #9 by Matthias I have tried to put myself in the position of the seller and give him the benefit of the doubt. You pick up a calculator. You are not familar with the calculator You turn it on It doesn't work You see the battery in the box and decide to put it in the calculator The battery cover won't open. (Matthias couldn't even get it open easy) AND, the 10 battery is a little different than most. You have to slide it down and pull it out. You can't figure out how to install the battery You decide to use the AC adapter to test The fact that the seller doesn't even mention that there are 2 batteries, suggests that he might not even have been aware of it. I guess it's possible to see how the seller might not have been able to see the corrosion. Edited: 5 Jan 2004, 6:54 p.m.

Re: Upon further thought Message #11 Posted by nmarkov22@yahoo.com on 5 Jan 2004, 7:13 p.m., in response to message #10 by Mike My take on such a transaction is: who takes the loss, the buyer or the seller? It's historically the seller who gets to "fix" the problem. (right or wrong) Your good name is on the line. And if the battery corroded in transit, it's still the seller's problem. The item wasn't mint when it got there. Nick

I tend to agree Message #12 Posted by Mike on 5 Jan 2004, 7:24 p.m., in response to message #11 by nmarkov22@yahoo.com However, there are some mitigating factors both for and against this proposition. When the seller doesn't check his item thoroughly and pitches it in some "condition", it better be in that "condition". The item must match the stated condition, period. If not, the seller should assume the risk. When the seller gives full discription, and the item matches the sellers discription, the risk belongs to the bidder. If the seller makes no claims and the bidder asks no questions and the seller states "as is" the risk belongs to the bidder. If the seller knows of some serious flaw and fails to disclose it, I consider that lying by omission. The seller should assume the risk. (But this would be clear deception and I doubt the seller would own up) Edited: 5 Jan 2004, 7:28 p.m.

Re: Upon further thought Message #13 Posted by Gordon Dyer on 5 Jan 2004, 7:21 p.m., in response to message #10 by Mike I had some correspodence with the buyer and asked him to send me close up pics of the real calc and to get permission from Dave Hicks to use the MoHPC pic. Send me an email and I will forward further details.

Re: Sulphide during delivery? Message #14 Posted by Frederic on 5 Jan 2004, 9:04 p.m., in response to message #1 by Matthias Wow at the price you paid, i hope you got some, at least, partial refund? Were you able to get the calculator to work "again"? Fred

Re: Sulphide during delivery? Message #15 Posted by Seller on 6 Jan 2004, 2:05 a.m., in response to message #14 by Frederic Hi.. Thanks for everyones input on this subject....I'm not here to rip anyone off nor do i know much about HP calculators, nor do i collect them...I pick them up at swap meets and thrift stores and for 1 simple reason,,Thats to sell them on ebay....I have sold about 20 calculators in the past 3 years..Never had a problem I sold Matthias another calculator a couple month ago, and he emailed me that he wasnt 100% happy with the item ...I said fine send it back, he said no just give me a partial refund..so i did and gave him $$ back, then i noticed he bought my 2nd calculator and for him being unhappy i shipped the item for free from the US to him....As some off you said, He mightnot be a collector and used AC adaptor to test it,,,and thats exactly what i didplugged it in the wall and it worked, and calculator looked like new to me.......after a few days i got pretty much the same email from him, like the 1st calculator i sold him,,,,,,to make it shoet it was like : Hi I'm not happy with calculator but if you give me $ 200 i wont leave bad feedback,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Of course this is made short and to the point, but that what he said) That worked for the 1st calculator but not 2nd time around, Plus he was rude about it..I offered him another unit i bought on the swap meet this week to make up for the misunderstanding there was but he said no ...wich is fine...no problem,,and if it was for the rudeness and the 2nd time around i would just return some $$$...........Anyway he also emailed me not to insure the item so he can save $$ on taxes since he is overseas, so i only insured it for the $$ 200 he asked me too. so thats a loss on him because i'm 100% this unit worked when it left here.........i have sold many calculators ,,and i'm sure i have sold to all off you guys, i been with ebay since they opened and sold under many accounts in the past and never have a problem,,and i will continue to sell HP's when i find them...I hve a HP 38 right now that will be listed and a 82240a printer...None off you have to bid on them, if you feel i have done wrong, but as i said i'm not here to rip anyone off,,i always refund $$ if customer isnt happy, but i'm not gonna accept rude beahavior and threats with - feedback if i dont do as your command, and matthias i'm sorry if your unhappy ... Thats my little story of how i feel about this, and thanks for everyones impact on this matter.......... Ron

Re: Sulphide during delivery? Message #16 Posted by nmarkov22@yahoo.com on 6 Jan 2004, 3:15 a.m., in response to message #15 by Seller Ron: I'm confused. Did you check the battery compartment? Was it mint or was it corroded as Matthias said? Nick

Wow --what a f****** mess of a communique' Message #17 Posted by Karl Schneider on 6 Jan 2004, 4:29 a.m., in response to message #15 by Seller Wow! As my subject line suggests, that's just about the worst written statement I've ever seen -- utter chaos of language and thought, misspellings, wrong words, lack of grammar and punctuation. It's the mark of someone who either slid through his schooling or just plain doesn't give a s***. Quote: I'm not here to rip anyone off nor do i know much about HP calculators, nor do i collect them...I pick them up at swap meets and thrift stores and for 1 simple reason,,Thats to sell them on ebay. Ah-ha! So you pick up whatever you can find, and re-sell it for whatever you can get, without knowing much of anything about what you are selling. Apparently, you have no inhibitions about misrepresenting rare items as being in "mint" condition without much more than a superficial checkover. Quote: I offered him another unit i bought on the swap meet this week to make up for the misunderstanding there was Hey, what a guy! Is this "unit" something that actually met the auction description, or is it just some unrelated piece of junk you're willing to throw in as a so-called "deal sweetener"? Quote: i have sold many calculators ,,and i'm sure i have sold to all off you guys, i been with ebay since they opened and sold under many accounts in the past and never have a problem,,and i will continue to sell HP's when i find them. No, I seriously doubt that you've sold to me, and probably not to most OF us. I'll certainly avoid you, if I know all of your "many accounts" to watch out for. Could you kindly tell us which active eBay accounts you are using? ----------- And here's some sommon-sense advice to eBay buyers: 1. Be cautious about auctions which provide many generic copy-and-paste specifications about a mass-produced item, but few specifics about the condition of the particular item for sale. If you were buying a '65 Corvette, would you want a detailed listing of the manufacturer's standard equipment, or details about the car and its condition? 2. Avoid sellers of rare collectibles who can't express thoughts coherently. They almost certainly lack the knowledge, appreciation of quality, and the attention to detail that real collectors possess.

I've also had problems with this guy Message #18 Posted by Pascal on 6 Jan 2004, 6:17 a.m., in response to message #15 by Seller The seller says : "I have sold about 20 calculators in the past 3 years..Never had a problem" This is not true. I bought from this guy an HP-38c and 4 (yes four) months after payment, I'm still waiting for the calculator !! He said he shipped the calculator to the wrong country (Canada instead of Switzerland) and that the calculator was returned to him (which is normal). Now he refuses to pay again for shipping to the correct country !! I've sent him many e-mails but he almost never answers. Therefore, I'm not surprised that he caused problems to other buyers ... Edited: 6 Jan 2004, 6:20 a.m.

He is using BOGUS excuses Message #19 Posted by Mike on 6 Jan 2004, 8:36 a.m., in response to message #18 by Pascal If he shipped to the wrong country, it is his responsibility to cover the shipping. He basically wasted your shipping and is demanding more. Perhaps this is why he has to keep changing his ebay account, as he says. Has he returned your payment? If he has, but is deducting your shipping, that is still a questionable practice. It is not your fault that he made the mistake. Edited: 6 Jan 2004, 9:19 a.m.

Follow-up : I've also had problems with this guy Message #20 Posted by Pascal on 7 Jan 2004, 2:23 a.m., in response to message #18 by Pascal It seems that this thread is not only useful to Matthias : after posting my message above, the seller contacted me to say he would ship my calculator tomorrow. We'll see... I will post a follow-up about this issue.

Why do you sell under multiple IDs? Message #21 Posted by Mike on 6 Jan 2004, 8:32 a.m., in response to message #15 by Seller You said: "i have sold to all off you guys, i been with ebay since they opened and sold under many accounts in the past" Normally, people stick with the same ID unless they have problems and want to hide feedback. bottomline: There are many experts here. It is clear that this corrosion has been there for a long time. It is the "sellers" responsibility to assure that the item matches his description. Matthias does not use English as a first language (sorry Matthias), so perhaps the way he phrased his email was a little abrupt. But the bottomline is that he is known and what he says is how it is. You owe him compensation, regardless of the way he expressed himself. You say you are "not here to rip anyone off." Well, why don't you demonstrate that, since it is clearly your responsibility to make good on your description? Excuses don't let you off the hook. Edited: 6 Jan 2004, 9:22 a.m. after one or more responses were posted

Re: Why do you sell under multiple IDs? Message #22 Posted by Matthias on 6 Jan 2004, 9:00 a.m., in response to message #21 by Mike Your posting says exactly, what I think. Thank you Mike (especially for your better english than mine)... It could be, that my words were a little bit rude, but this was not my intention, but a lack of missing words.

Re: Sulphide during delivery? Message #23 Posted by Seller on 6 Jan 2004, 2:15 a.m., in response to message #1 by Matthias Left message

Re: Sulphide during delivery? Message #24 Posted by Scuba Diver on 6 Jan 2004, 5:10 p.m., in response to message #23 by Seller I took a look at the auction too, and since he bought this at a swap meet (where I imagine the participants have less knowledge of HPs than "Seller" does), he probably made quite a bit of money on this! Seller: If you're not looking to rip anyone off, then why don't you agree on a fair price and refund him the difference? Admit your mistake, acknowledge that you weren't thorough, and move on. Oh, and Pascal, I'm here in Canada, and I haven't seen your calculator either! :) B.

Re: Sulphide during delivery? Message #25 Posted by Matthias on 6 Jan 2004, 6:26 p.m., in response to message #24 by Scuba Diver Hi everybody Thanks a lot for all your postings. It seems, that most of you agree with me, that this was not a correct auction from the sellers side. As I told the seller, I will give him a fair chance to fix the problem: - refund money ($200). Iīm shure, the other readers of this forum will tell you, that this is a fair refund. - give me a exchance - send me back the money for the calculator ($350) and you will get back the calc. (So I would buy only box, manual, ... for $400, what is also a good price for you. To the seller: As you see, that discussion was more a "own goal" for you than for me as promissed. I knew that the family of collectors would agree. So, I will left a positive feedback, if you admit your mistake and fix the problem in a way Iīm also satisfied. To all readers of this forum: I will give Destinyh143@aol.com a last chance of a week to fix this problem. In one week, I will give you a feedback and I will tell you, if the seller is making compromises.

Re: Sulphide during delivery? Message #26 Posted by nmarkov22@yahoo.com on 6 Jan 2004, 9:38 p.m., in response to message #25 by Matthias I'm not sure that I agree with these terms either. The box and manuals can be as valuable as the calculator. It is the whole set that makes the deal. I think the seller should have the chance to give Matthias full refund (including the shipping charges), if he so chooses. Nick

Huh! Message #27 Posted by Mike on 6 Jan 2004, 11:17 p.m., in response to message #26 by nmarkov22@yahoo.com Box and manual for $400 is not fair? There is no way that the seller could offer the Box and Manual and get $400 for those alone. That offer is a steal for the seller. He should take the money and run. Since Matthias is an avid collector, it is well worth it to him. The seller could still sell the calc for $300+ EASY (assuming it is still in good condition). If you say, "no he can't because of the condition", then that still suports the position that this $400 offer is a great offer. Even if he only got $200 for the calc, he is still getting $600 for an item that had corrosion. He will never get a top price for the whole package again, unless he tries to decieve people. He now knows it is corroded and would have to disclose that or deceive bidders. How much would you think he could get for the whole package, if he listed it as corroded and showed photos like Matthias? There is no way that the $400 isn't a good offer. I do agree, though, that a full refund should be on the table. Edited: 6 Jan 2004, 11:18 p.m.

Re: Huh! Message #28 Posted by nmarkov22@yahoo.com on 7 Jan 2004, 2:04 a.m., in response to message #27 by Mike We are in full agreement.. I still get sticker shock over the prices these calculators and boxes get. I used to throw my boxes away. I kick myself for it now. This is kind of like still being mad at my mother for throwing away my childhood Superman comics that now sell for a fortune.

Re: Huh! Message #29 Posted by GE (France) on 7 Jan 2004, 5:16 p.m., in response to message #27 by Mike This price is amazing. Could you estimate an average price for a corrosion-free HP10 with a dead battery pack ? Maybe I'll have to write some special instructions in my will if, at the time, my children want to buy a new house... Do you think ANY calculator can be paid more than $300 ? On the other hand, from time to time I see prices for mechanical calculators or typewriters, and for these collectors already navigate in uber-madness. Maybe the time has come for an official quotes list ?

Re: Huh! Message #30 Posted by Mike on 8 Jan 2004, 2:01 a.m., in response to message #29 by GE (France) You said, "Do you think ANY calculator can be paid more than $300 ?" I don't know why you would think this is high. Many of us have paid $700 for calculators when they first came out. Why wouldn't a collectible worth as much. Collectible prices go up; not down.

Re: Huh! Message #31 Posted by David Smith on 8 Jan 2004, 12:25 p.m., in response to message #27 by Mike I have seen the HP-10 manual sell for $200 alone! The box is even rarer. A bare HP-10 usually sells for around $300. All the boxed/manual ones have gone for over $700 (one for $1700). 700 ENTER 300 - gives 400. I suspect that a box/manual for the HP10 (in nice condition) would indeed fetch over $400.

Re: Huh! Message #32 Posted by db(martinez,california) on 8 Jan 2004, 10:36 p.m., in response to message #31 by David Smith David; You said "700 ENTER 300 - gives 400." But on an HP 10; it's 700 - 300 = 400. Yuck!

Re: Huh! Message #33 Posted by Seller on 9 Jan 2004, 12:36 a.m., in response to message #32 by db(martinez,california) Hi Matthias...I will go ahead and take the Whole deal back...Email me and i take it all back, Sorry if item was missrepresented....

Re: Huh! Message #34 Posted by Matthias on 9 Jan 2004, 12:51 a.m., in response to message #33 by Seller But I would like to keep the box and the manual. I only bidded, cause of them. Do you make me a offer for those two items? If not, all of this was for nothing and we both are not satisfied. As you can see $400 is a good deal for the box and the manual.

Re: Huh! Message #35 Posted by Seller on 9 Jan 2004, 1:01 a.m., in response to message #34 by Matthias Hi No its ok,,I will refund the Whole amount, I have someone else who wants to buy the box and manual,,i'll just give you all your $ and you have no more Problems,

Re: Huh! Message #36 Posted by Matthias on 9 Jan 2004, 7:27 a.m., in response to message #35 by Seller But I bought this item at your auction and I want to keep the part that is ok. As mentioned, I will pay a lot for it. The other guy may have the calculator yes, either for $350 from me of from any amount of you. To the mentened member (if there is any): Please verify your identity (with mail address) as I do for fixing this way. Otherwise you will not get the calculator.

Re: Huh! Message #37 Posted by GE (France) on 9 Jan 2004, 5:51 p.m., in response to message #36 by Matthias NOW I recall how much I paid for my 10 last year. Was beginning like $350 but with much less digits.

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