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HP Forum Archive 13

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HP 49G+ My Disappointment
Message #1 Posted by Joe Edwards on 4 Nov 2003, 6:40 p.m.

Well, I just got my HP 49G+ this afternoon, and it is already on its way back to the HP calculator graveyard. Why? Like I need to tell you folks! I had such high hopes for a new HP calc to replace my late HP 48GX calc. I was sorely mistaken to trust that HP could change its ways. Within five mins (max) of using it, both of the Shift keys began to stick and the ON button completely stuck in the down position. Grrrrrrrr. It is sad to say that I finally broke down and bought a TI-89. :( Seriously though, could someone PLEASE explain why it is so dang hard for HP to design a calculator that at least matches the quality construction of the old Pioneers. I don't mind the color scheme of the new machine, and heck, I can even handle the new keyboard layout. But WHY can they not make a simple keyboard to match the Pioneer series? Is it that cost prohibitive to make a quality product? I would really like to hear your ideas on this. Thanks.

Joe Edwards A former HP customer.

      
Re: HP 49G+ My Disappointment
Message #2 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 4 Nov 2003, 6:55 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards

Hi,

I'd take one of those 48GX's with b/w high contrast display. Why? You won't miss much of the 49x , but you'll have the good display, and the better keys & keyboard;-)

Raymond

            
Re: HP 49G+ My Disappointment
Message #3 Posted by Joe on 4 Nov 2003, 7:10 p.m.,
in response to message #2 by Raymond Del Tondo

I already knew that. The knowledge was just further justified after the 49g+ episode.

      
Re: HP 49G+ My Disappointment
Message #4 Posted by Bob on 4 Nov 2003, 7:14 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards

I am sad to say that I too have made the switch to the TI though the screen and keys suck. I purchased mine about 8 months ago and at the time I knew that the 49G was not a good choice.

I had high hopes when I heard about the g+ I have considered buying one for the past few days. It looks like that wouldn't be worth while. I have gone through some of the Manual for the 49G+ and it seems much better written then the TI manuals. It really is disappointing that the once ruler of the calculator world can't even produce a calculator of similar quality to the ones they produced a few years ago.

I own 4 hp's and one ti and unfortunately at this point it look like I'll be owning the TI a little longer. I really miss the hp's but they just don't do the math anymore.

            
While we are talking about quality
Message #5 Posted by Naim on 4 Nov 2003, 8:42 p.m.,
in response to message #4 by Bob

Could someone tell me if the 17BII+ is a good investment, or should I get a 17BII while I can?

                  
Re: While we are talking about quality
Message #6 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 4 Nov 2003, 8:55 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by Naim

If the 17BII+@xyz... housing nad keys are similar to the ones of the 10BII, then I strongly recommend the 'classic' 17BII (without the plus)

Raymond

                  
Re: While we are talking about quality
Message #7 Posted by CalcKidd on 4 Nov 2003, 10:14 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by Naim

I have a 17BII+, though I haven't taken it out of the blister pack yet.

I does appear to be a 10BII on weak steroids.

I, too, agree that HP needs to stop the bullsh*t and make a 49GX with a better keyboard (at least they stopped the rubber keys; like the 49G has).

The only sane thing to do is have someone fabricate a new keyboard for the 49G+... hmm....

                        
49G keys
Message #8 Posted by Karl Schneider on 5 Nov 2003, 1:54 a.m.,
in response to message #7 by CalcKidd

CalcKidd wrote:

Quote:
I, too, agree that HP needs to stop the bullsh*t and make a 49GX with a better keyboard (at least they stopped the rubber keys; like the 49G has).

I have a 49G and, like others, have found it difficult to enter anything quickly. The real problem, though, isn't the rubber keys; it's the fact that they aren't hinged. On any non-49G HP, you can strike a key off-center and it will register. On the 49G, if you hit a key on its corner, it just "lists" to that side. The keypad I have to use to open my garage door has the same problem, and I end up having to punch the code three times.

How can such fundamental things be forgotten or overlooked in product design?

                              
Re: 49G+ keys -- hinges may have helped, but ....
Message #9 Posted by Paul Brogger on 5 Nov 2003, 9:11 a.m.,
in response to message #8 by Karl Schneider

My 49G+ apparently has hinged keys, but several still consistently register inconsistently [;^)]. On those keys, I can press on one side and get a better recognition rate than when pressed on the other.

Not having a 49G, I don't know how they compare. It does seem, however, that the 49G+'s tactile feedback is somehow divorced from its electrical contact, and that it's possible to have one without the other. Somehow, H-P used to be able to cause the tactile feedback be a MUCH more reliable indication of electrical contact.

A lost art?

                                    
Key debouncing
Message #10 Posted by David Ramsey on 5 Nov 2003, 12:10 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Paul Brogger

As I recall, one of the justifications for the crappy-feeling keypads on the 49G and similar models was that the new key switches did not require software debouncing. The older HPs debounced keys in software using the main processor, which took a significant performance toll. My memory is that the 49G is about twice as fast as a 48 series machine with the same processor and clock speed, simply because it's not spending so many CPU cycles debouncing keys.

Anyone else remember this?

                                          
Re: Key debouncing
Message #11 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 5 Nov 2003, 12:42 p.m.,
in response to message #10 by David Ramsey

But in the HP-48 it simply works. Please remember that many 49G users had to adjust a constant (->KEYWAIT ?) manually, to reduce keypress registation errors, or even bounces.

Many users of both machines can tell keyboard entry on the HP-48 is much faster than on the 49G, simply because of the much better kbd mechanics, and thus more reliable user interface.

And for the speed: the 49G has many optimizations inside the OS compared to the HP-48, where the keyboard debouncing is only a very little part, which doesn't even count, because they had to introduce that (->KEYWAIT ?) mechanism, which burns valuable CPU time again when reading the user defined constant. Much more important regarding speed is the new memory management, the FLASHPointers, and the latest garbage collector. It was a very long way for them to get it going well;-)

Nevertheless I don't think the 49G is twice as fast as the HP-48G series. Many things are faster, some are slower.

Raymond

BTW: I'm not sure if the function is called ->KEYWAIT or only similar...

                                                
Re: Key debouncing
Message #12 Posted by Francesc Casanellas on 7 Nov 2003, 2:24 a.m.,
in response to message #11 by Raymond Del Tondo

The key debouncing function is ->KEYTIME (you can use the CATalog). I recommend you try a value of about 500 (500 ->KEYTIME in RPN).

The function is always used, so de processor is always looking at it as in any machine. The factory set value is too high, making the keyboard too slow. Changing the value does not decreasse processor speed.

Edited: 7 Nov 2003, 2:26 a.m.

                                    
Re: 49G+ keys -- hinges may have helped, but ....
Message #13 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 5 Nov 2003, 12:14 p.m.,
in response to message #9 by Paul Brogger

> A lost art?

Yes, seems to be this way...

It started with the horrible keyboard of the 49G and it's relatives (39G, 40G), not counting the doorstop crap (6S, ...) , and not talking about the spoiled keyboard layout.

AFAIK they had to reduce cost as much as possible to be profitable, but the long-term consequence is 'hp' looses customers because of those incredible cost & quality savings...

Raymond

                                          
Re: 49G+ keys -- hinges may have helped, but ....
Message #14 Posted by CalcKidd on 5 Nov 2003, 1:48 p.m.,
in response to message #13 by Raymond Del Tondo

Apparently, HP thinks that making cals in China with sub-par keyboards reduces costs. Yes and no.

It reduces inital costs (I assume), but increases returns and causes loyal HP customers to look elsewhere for quality.

It seems that Americans are getting used to sub-par products and services. Just go to almost any checkout line and see what kind of service you get from the teenager at the register. Call you local utility company or cell phone company and see how many buttons you have to push to get into "hold hell".

Customer service is nearly dead. Customer satisfaction is not far behind. The bottom line is now the top line. We are being "fed" crap on a spoon and just supposed to accept it.

Anyway, until some of us can get onto the "board" at HP, we're gonna get what we get. All we can do is hope there is an after-market company startup that takes these calcs and turns them into what they should've been to begin with.

(rant over)

                                          
Re: 49G+ keys -- hinges may have helped, but ....
Message #15 Posted by Joe on 5 Nov 2003, 3:18 p.m.,
in response to message #13 by Raymond Del Tondo

But, how much of a savings is there per machine to construct a 48GX style keypad compared to the 49G+ keypad?

As I stated, the new layout is fine with me. I miss the BIG enter key, but I can live without it.

What I cannot handle is a keypad that doesn't register my keystrokes or has keys stick in place within five minutes of use.

Does anyone actually know the approximate differences in cost to manufacture those two style keypads?

Joe

                                                
Re: Don't know calcs but can quote for phones
Message #16 Posted by Ron Ross on 5 Nov 2003, 3:58 p.m.,
in response to message #15 by Joe

Manufacturing different types of phone keypads is as little as 0.50$ to $2-3 difference depending upon the complexity (a phone does have fewer contacts). But multiply this by millions of units sold and the CEO's at Hp immediately see the bottom line savings of using the cheaper keypad.

They cannot imagine anyone would return such a fine instrument, since it looks so good, back for a replacement or a refund. Cowcatchers are in! Functionality are OUT! Get with the program!

My last Hp I bought new was an Hp10BII. What a POS!!! When I heard about soft keys and no consistancy, I had NO idea what these people were talking about. They must be on DRUGS! Then I opened the 10BII and used it for about two minutes. The upper right corner keys were flat. If it were a $5-10 calculator, so what? But Hp list's this POS for $30. If a $30 Hp20s had a good keypad, why can't a $100 Hp have a good keypad? Hp only recently quit making the 20s (about a year or two ago). Get THAT keyboard technology back!!!

                                                      
Re: Don't know calcs but can quote for phones
Message #17 Posted by Joe Edwards on 5 Nov 2003, 4:14 p.m.,
in response to message #16 by Ron Ross

I understand that completely. I would have paid and extra $10.00 for a quality keyboard!!!

I just picked up the last 3 HP20s models from my bookstore. They may not be RPN, but they are my choice to work with on a day to day basis for number crunching.

I realize that the early 21st century may not gives us personal jet packs, but how about giving us a keyboard of the same quality that was built no more than 5 - 10 years ago!!!

Boo HP.

Don't get me wrong. I was okay with the color (preferred the silver on the 48GII) and the capabilities of the machine, just not the CONSTRUCTION.

      
That's really unfortunate!
Message #18 Posted by Gene on 4 Nov 2003, 11:33 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards

I have a VERY early 49G+ and although I get some key presses that don't register, I have had no problems at all like you mention.

I have used it more than 99% of those who have it and have not found it hard to use at all.

Newer units than mine have been said to have much much better response with the keyboard.

I think perhaps you just got a lemon off the production line.

Why can't HP make a $150 calculator that won't do that?

Why do Macintosh computers sometimes arrive at customer's houses and don't turn on?

Why do Dell's have hardware problems at times that I read about?

Why can't Microsoft make an OS that has its security holes plugged?

Buying a TI is not the answer, IMO. The 49G+ has many features the 48GX and TI models do not have.

Hard to know too if any reports might be forged by TI users...think that's beyond the realm of possibility? Perhaps, perhaps not.

(Note: I'm not suggesting this post if forged...but some might be)

Gene (and slightly paranoid!)

            
Re: That's really unfortunate!
Message #19 Posted by Ernie Malaga on 5 Nov 2003, 12:02 a.m.,
in response to message #18 by Gene

Quote:
Why can't Microsoft make an OS that has its security holes plugged?

I'm going to stick my neck out. The question I'd really like to have answered is, "Why can't Microsoft make software without bugs?" _Every_ piece of software made by MS has bugs of one kind or another; sometimes serious, others trivial.

Just this afternoon, for example, I was editing a document with Word. I highlighted a word, clicked to change its case (upper-, lower-, etc.) and nothing happened. I reduced the selection by one character (i.e., leaving one character out) and the "Change Case" command worked.

And we're talking about a product that has been around for at least 13 years!

-Ernie

            
Re: That's really unfortunate!
Message #20 Posted by Joe on 5 Nov 2003, 7:09 a.m.,
in response to message #18 by Gene

Gene, This has nothing to do with TI brand loyalty. Heck, I have used HP's since I was out of high school. I have owned a HP 41CX, a HP 32s, a HP 48G+, a HP 48GX, and the returned HP 49G+. I am not advocating TI over HP. I REALLY wanted that calc to work!!! Many of my friend could attest to that. :) In fact, I have been bitching constantly for over a month as to why an American company chose not to release them first in the U.S. (Not racist here, just impatient). I guess I could have gotten a lemon, sure. But that doesn't answer my question as to why HP chose to return to the calc scene with a calc that has a substandard keyboard. Even ignoring the stuck keys, why couldn't they just manufacture a keyboard like the 48GX in quality? How difficult would it be? I am not trying to be sarcastic, I really am curious as to the differece in the manufacturing process of the old and new keyboards.

      
Re: HP 49G+ My Disappointment
Message #21 Posted by Joe on 5 Nov 2003, 6:58 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards

So, can anyone tell me as to why it isn't done? Profits? That can be the only reason. I really cannot believe that it isn't possible to build a keyboard like on the 48G series. How much extra would such a keyboard actually cost?

            
Re: HP 49G+ My Disappointment
Message #22 Posted by John Limpert on 5 Nov 2003, 8:38 a.m.,
in response to message #21 by Joe

It may be that the contractor (Kenpo?) does not have the knowledge or equipment to make old-style HP keyboards.

HP may not have any engineers left from the days of quality calculator construction, when the hardware design and manufacturing were done in-house.

I've seen something similar happen with PC keyboards. There has been a "race to the bottom", in quality and price.

                  
Re: HP 49G+ My Disappointment
Message #23 Posted by Tom Scott on 5 Nov 2003, 2:01 p.m.,
in response to message #22 by John Limpert

You'd think that if HP would have used their old (HP48) keyboard engineering design scheme on the 49G+, they would have not only produced significanlty better keyboards but also would have saved money. Surely HP would provide that information to Kinpo.

Tom Scott

      
Does it worth to buy an HP49G+ ?
Message #24 Posted by Artur on 5 Nov 2003, 8:35 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Joe Edwards

Hi,

I'm reading the comments and I becoming afraid of buying the new HP's calculator - not only the calculator, but today I was looking for a scanner and the HP49Gx keyboard ghost was in my mind all the time... worst to HP, which had a good name since I was a school student ... So, could someone give me a support, because I would like so much the new calculator ... Buy it or forget this idea forever???

            
Re: Does it worth to buy an HP49G+ ?
Message #25 Posted by Joesph on 5 Nov 2003, 8:58 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Artur

Why not just buy it, and if the keyboard has problems take it back?

The other problem is with the blinking screen. This is irritating, but it seems like a software problem. I am hoping for a flash update.

If you want to see something amusing, read this: http://www-s.ti.com/cgi-bin/discuss/sdbmessageview.cgi?databasetoopen=calculators&topicarea=Graphing+Calculator+Comparisons&viewmethod=Thread&messageid=142953

It's a nice review, coming from the TI website!

            
Re: Does it worth to buy an HP49G+ ?
Message #26 Posted by John Limpert on 7 Nov 2003, 2:05 p.m.,
in response to message #24 by Artur

Another choice is just to wait for a while and see if HP corrects the initial design and production problems with the calculator. There is something to be said for waiting for version 1.1 of any hardware product.


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