HP Forum Archive 13

[ Return to Index | Top of Index ]

Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #1 Posted by Diego D燰z on 4 Nov 2003, 9:05 a.m. Hi all, It's been pointed out in a previous thread about 聲gel Martin's elegant SandBox ROM (my apologies for the intromission 聲gel), that the Clonix modules will be little more than useless if they cannot run on 2x machines. I assumed (while developing the hardware power control) that low power figures were more likely to be the main thing to care of. Anyhow I was probably wrong. Running at 2x with current software implementation will drastically increase the power requirements while in STAND-BY mode (from 1mA to 20mA!), it's possible though. Now I will accept the challenge to re-write the Clonix code and cope with both low power and 2x speed, this is only a personal proyect after all, and the more I play with it the more fun I get ;-) I'm using an old over-clocked 41C with 1LE3-0001 processor (yes, it produces those nasty negative pulses into the SYNC timing), it runs OK at 610KHz (1.7x) and becomes really unstable around 620-630KHz. I'd like to know about your experiences with, so called, 2x machines: real clock speed, processor type, machine type (C, CV, CX, Half, Full...), unstability issues, etc. Your comments will be greatly appreciated and will, in turn, help to the Clonix 41 2x upgrade proyect. It's a real pleasure to see such a number of ROM/RAM Box proyects blooming those days, may we get those oversized eBay prices to low down a bit with all this effort. Thanks in advance.

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #2 Posted by Meindert Kuipers on 4 Nov 2003, 11:01 a.m., in response to message #1 by Diego D燰z My HP41C runs at about 526 kHz (original was 357 kHz), with no stability issues at all, including any of the peripherals I have. I have not tried to overclock my 41CV and 41CX, and I don't think I will attempt to point a soldering iron to these beauties. I do think however that ebay prices will increase for module housings and cardreader housings ;-) Meindert

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #3 Posted by Diego Diaz on 4 Nov 2003, 12:29 p.m., in response to message #2 by Meindert Kuipers That's a good point, Meindert. I'll be ready to accept your "overpriced" module housings :-) Now, seriously, I'm trying to get a non working card readed to fit you MLDL kit in. In the meantime, playing with my Clonix is keeping me busy, and your info regarding clock speed served me as a reference. I've been browsing PPCJ's to see over-clocking related issues, and it seems that no-one pulled the 41 clock above 625KHz, wich means an increment of 173.6%, but those PPCJ articles were based on early machines, by the other hand the 1LF5-0002 built-in oscilator is nominally a 800KHz resonant circuit according to the chip specs, so later 41's could, theoretically, be pushed up to this clock frequency: a 222.2% increment! Hope to see more messages in this thread, to make myself a more accurate picture of that. Thanks for your comments. Cheers. Diego.

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #4 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 4 Nov 2003, 2:00 p.m., in response to message #3 by Diego Diaz AFAIR, the CX, and especially the halfnut version, runs at a somewhat higher clock than the older C's and CV's . Raymond

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #5 Posted by Meindert Kuipers on 5 Nov 2003, 3:53 a.m., in response to message #3 by Diego Diaz Diego, There are several memory modules available at pretty low prices, for example: http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3056135106&category=11713 Buy a bunch of them and make a fortune, I still have some left for myself so I will not be the one driving up prices :-)

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #6 Posted by Angel Martin on 4 Nov 2003, 3:21 p.m., in response to message #2 by Meindert Kuipers I for one, wouldn't bother so much about 2x issues. IMHO it is *much* more important to have the lowest possible consumption, and won't trade that for "high" (?) speed. If not, consider: no Time Module support (Alarms included) no Card Reader support... Besides, how much faster does it get? Compared to modern calcs even 2x is very slow. Speed isn't the point of the 41 system, it never was but now less than ever. Best wishes, AM.

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #7 Posted by Helmut Kueppers on 5 Nov 2003, 5:35 a.m., in response to message #6 by Angel Martin i have 200%(2x) 41cv + time. time module can be used with 200% speed!!! it has own clock/crystal. I using card reader. have switch - micro switch. card reader @ switch=0, speed @ switch=1. conclude: card reader and time module = no problem. helmut kueppers Edited: 5 Nov 2003, 5:51 a.m.

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #8 Posted by 聲gel Martin on 4 Nov 2003, 3:24 p.m., in response to message #1 by Diego D燰z No intromission at all Diego... besides, now you give me another thread to bring up my SandBox ! (just kidding, or am I?) Best wishes, 簍.

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #9 Posted by Diego Diaz on 4 Nov 2003, 3:51 p.m., in response to message #8 by 聲gel Martin Ha, ha, you're welcomed 聲gel, my home is your home (sincerely) Ok, I must admit (confess?) that the aim of this thread is double folded: I *really* want to know about the technical details of 2x 41's, as those reported by Meindert... and, poll the forum to see if the 2x machines are so common and they deserve the effort of re-coding the PIC. Up to now, there seems to be no much interest in the issue, or no interest at all in the Clonix... time will tell. Regarding Raymond post, I've got two HalfNut CX machines (s/n 2646S.... and 2819S....) and they run at 361 and 358Khz respectively. So, no speed up were provided by HP on late models. I'll keep on tracking. Kind regards from the Canaries. Diego.

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #10 Posted by Werner on 5 Nov 2003, 3:42 a.m., in response to message #9 by Diego Diaz Hi Diego, you just said: "Up to now, there seems to be no much interest in the issue, or no interest at all in the Clonix... time will tell." Oh, I think there is a lot of interest, maybe yet not many messages here at this place. I am VERY interested in such a great option, please keep on working on it! It is a wonderful project! From my point-of-view I cannot really decide what would be better (for me), double speed or low power consumption. (I have a "slow" and one speeded-up (x2) HP41CX, so fortunately I could use your module anyway) Concerning power consumption: You mentioned 1mA vs. 20mA at standby. Do you have numbers of former devices to compare with ? a) how much current is needed for the HP41CX without extension modules ? b) how much extra current would be needed for a X-Memory module, a HEPAX 8k/16k module or a ZEPROM module ? Concerning the speed issue: There was a question in the sandbox thread with regard to the possible speed of ZEPROM modules. I tested my ZEPROM-16k module in my 2x speeded-up HP-41 and it still works fine. But I have not yet measured the power consumption ! Concerning your question on maximum speed for fullnuts and halfnuts: I found a note in the forum on a 3 to 4 times speed upgrade for halfnuts: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv006.cgi?read=11913 "The half nut circuits works great even without the mounted 150pF capacitor at 3-4x (BEEP sounds very different at that speed)." I also had found another note a year ago in the web speaking about a times-4-upgrade of halfnuts. Unfortunately I did not save the document and cannot relocate it by Google. I still remember that there was written that the new halfnut circuitry was based on hardware technology of the later calculator models (e.g. HP-42s) und could thus be speeded up twice as much as the fullnut which could only be speeded up to 2 times maximum (sometimes less, dependend on the device). Nothing was written on the speed upgradability for X-Memory modules or, e.g., the HEPAX RAM. Can they also follow a 4x speed up? I do not know. Does anyone have information or practical experience on the described x3-x4 upgrade ? So far for the moment. Please keep on going with your nice project - independent if fast or "slow" - I can only congratulate you to that activity! Best regards, Werner (Germany) Edited: 5 Nov 2003, 3:47 a.m.

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #11 Posted by Christoph Klug on 5 Nov 2003, 4:31 a.m., in response to message #10 by Werner Dear Diego, your Clonix project sounds nice, and some of your modules are wellcome to the plug in ports of my handhelds. I only use/need standard speed for my HP41 projects - not the 2x speed up feature. Speed is not a key feature of the HP41 system... A good source for getting module cases would be creating Double X-Memory modules. And from them follows an optimal HP41 port configuration. When you have finished your prototype design with positive results you have to complete the next step : Mass production of 20 up to 100 samples of your Clonix Module - including a nice Documentation, describing your system and the needed programmer tools. I think it will also be possible to transfer function tested Clonix pcb愀 to the user. Than they solder the terminal and complete the module shell... Best wishes from Germany for your Clonix project - Christoph Klug

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #12 Posted by Diego Diaz on 5 Nov 2003, 9:34 a.m., in response to message #11 by Christoph Klug Hi Christoph, Glad to hear form you again, and of your interest in my personal proyect. Yes, the module housings search issue is becoming the "Achiles' heel" of the whole proyect. I'm trying to get them, (currently an ad with this aim is posted in this very site), but still no answers... Probably my best chance is to offer an appropriate rebate to those potential customer that send me one or more spare modules. I'm not very happy with the idea of offering the PCB's, this may turn into a source of question/troubles related to the manufacturing process. Anyhow, this may be a last resort if modules become unavailable at the end. The best choice to program the Clonix is IC-Prog (www.ic-prog.com) it's freeware and runs really fine. A small PCB adapter (wich will go as the Clonix companion) routes the appropriate lines from the module connector to the PIC programmer DIL socket. I'm also preparing a full detailed documentation for the Clonix user, as well as a small program to make the PIC programming process as automatic as possible. This documents and the program will be freely available on the net (hopefully in the next 2 or 3 weeks). I bet you'll find them as soon as they show up...;-) My first production run is planned to be of only 25 units (I must also pay my bill's and those PIC's are not the cheapest one can find :-), some of them, as I posted in a previous thread, will go to the main contributors on this proyect and of course I'll keep 2 or 3 for my own use. The rest will be ready for sale/auction at the pace shells become available. Best wishes. Diego.

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #13 Posted by Giuseppe Marullo on 7 Nov 2003, 8:39 p.m., in response to message #12 by Diego Diaz Diego, any chance to use a bootloader in place of the pic programmer? You could use a simple smart cable and save the hassle to build the programmer. Giuseppe Marullo

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #14 Posted by James MacPhail on 8 Nov 2003, 4:33 p.m., in response to message #13 by Giuseppe Marullo Giuseppe wrote: Quote: Diego, any chance to use a bootloader in place of the pic programmer? You could use a simple smart cable and save the hassle to build the programmer. I think this is a much better use of Diego's time/effort compared to supporting 2x. Like most others, my 41C with speed-up modification has a switch for normal speed. That's just my opinion, Diego should decide what he wants to do. James

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #15 Posted by James MacPhail on 8 Nov 2003, 4:42 p.m., in response to message #12 by Diego Diaz Diego wrote: Quote: My first production run is planned to be of only 25 units (I must also pay my bill's and those PIC's are not the cheapest one can find :-) I will be pleased to contribute in advance of the first-run, I suspect others will as well. Quote: I'm not very happy with the idea of offering the PCB's, this may turn into a source of question/troubles I hope that unpopulated boards or kits will be available so that the price can be as low as possible (I expect to want a few). For this community, I would not fear accusations when trouble arises, but it should be made clear that unassembled boards/kits have no warranty. (I am assuming, and strongly recommend, that the boards will be 100% electrically tested.) Good luck! James

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #16 Posted by Diego Diaz on 5 Nov 2003, 5:28 a.m., in response to message #10 by Werner Thanks a lot for your enthusiasm and interest Werner. It looks like I've been a little bit unclear in my previous posts, and I'd like to poit out some facts: I'm not going to give up. The Clonix module IS already a real thing, and it will work on 2x 41's, it's a simple question of time for re-coding the PIC and make some minor hardware modifications. The 3x and 4x 41's are, for now, completely out of range, as there exist a technological limit for the PIC to run, determined by the number of PIC instruction cycles that can be executed between two consecutive 41's clock pulses. This limit is around 750Khz (2.1x), so this machine's users will have to slow down if they are interested in playing with the Clonix module. Sorry for that, but there's nothing I can do to modify PIC's specs... I can push it beyond the reasonable limit though, and make it run with a 20 or 25Mhz Xtal, (current implementation uses 12MHz Xtal.) but I don't think this worth the risk of internal malfunction/instability due to a severe 200% or 225% overclocking wich PIC are not supposed to cope with. But, of course, I'll also try this anyhow... ;-) One can never tell where the limit is without breaking it... More to come. Cheers Diego.

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #17 Posted by Jim Chumbley on 12 Nov 2003, 12:50 a.m., in response to message #16 by Diego Diaz Diego, I cannot send email to you at the address: sulacoPASMON2000@hotmail.com . Could you please tell me how to do it? Very sorry to post this request in the Museum.

Re: Clonix 41 module proyect, 2x upgrade. Message #18 Posted by Bob H. on 12 Nov 2003, 4:34 a.m., in response to message #17 by Jim Chumbley you have to delete the word "P A S M O N" out of the email string, that means "NO SPAM" in other order of the used letters ... With the residual letters it should work. Hopefully! Good Luck, Bob

[ Return to Index | Top of Index ]

Go back to the main exhibit hall