HP Forum Archive 13

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Buying a Used HP Message #1 Posted by Dave on 25 Aug 2003, 5:21 p.m. I have an HP 15C that I've owned for twenty years and I really like it. I would like to buy a used HP to use exclusively at work, but I'm not sure which model to buy. (I work as an EE). I like the 15C, but they are ridiculously expensive, so I've been looking at the 28C or 48G because they can be purchased at reasonable prices. Of these two choices, which would you recommend for general-purpose usage? Dave

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #2 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 25 Aug 2003, 5:44 p.m., in response to message #1 by Dave I'd take an 48G, if you don't plan to carry it around too often. Nearly all attributes of the 48G are larger/bigger/better than in the 28C: Display, RAM, speed, connectivity, and form factor. The operating system is far more advanced, there is MUCH more software available for the HP-48 series, and one of the most important points is the ability to exchange data between the 48G and other machines, like a PC or other HP-48. The only advantages of an HP-28 are their smaller form factor when folded, and the separate ALPHA keyboard. From my current point of view, I'd never buy a clamshell (HP-28, etc) machine again, at least not for real usage. From usability views, I'd suggest an 32S, 32SII, or even 42S. Regards, Raymond

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #3 Posted by Jeroen on 25 Aug 2003, 6:07 p.m., in response to message #1 by Dave I'd buy a 48G instead of a 28C (I own both a 48G and a 28S), at least if you're sure you don't need more than 32K (otherwise, buy a 48G+ or a 48GX). The 48G: - has a better display - has more memory and functions - is easier to use in one hand than the clamshell model of the 28C - has a cable link The 28C is slightly better for alpha entry and has a less cluttered keyboard. Jeroen

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #4 Posted by David Smith on 25 Aug 2003, 6:45 p.m., in response to message #1 by Dave You get what you pay for... the old machines are expensive for a good reason.

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #5 Posted by christof (NoVA US) on 25 Aug 2003, 7:22 p.m., in response to message #1 by Dave except for collecting, I see no reason at all to gt a 28C. Of course, I tend to muck around and fill my machines up with more than 2k of programs, data, and working needs. the 28S is a fine fine fine machine, on the other hand :) The 48g is probably your best bet, though- unless you want the pleasure of the alpha keyboard (I personally love it). A new in box 48g can be had for under $60 quite handily. while the 42S appeals to me slightly, more, you can pretty handily get a pair of 48Gs for half the price, and use them to back each other up. You may also want to look at a 48S. they don't come up as often, but tend to be drit cheap when they do. My work desktop calc is a 48S I got for a $8 bid on ebay a while back :)

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #6 Posted by Paul Brogger on 25 Aug 2003, 8:21 p.m., in response to message #1 by Dave I think the 28C/S keyboards have a bit more of the Woodstock, Spice, etc "classic feel" to them than do the 48G keyboards. The 28C/S is much less sturdy -- if you plan to squeeze or drop it, you'll rather want a 48 (given the choice offered). The 28C/S battery compartment door is legendary for being very badly designed, and very toublesome in use. If you get one, try to make sure the battery compartment is in near-mint condition, and be VERY careful when changing batteries yourself. The 28S, with 32K, is preferable to the 28C if you're going to store anything at all. (The 28C, with 30K fewer bytes, is, however, lighter. ;^) ) As noted elsewhere, the 28C/S keyboard is less cluttered. All in all, I'd take a 28C/S over a 48G -- it has more personality and a better feel. But if ruggedness or PC connectivity are significant, go for the 48G. You really shouldn't be disappointed either way. (You might try to find both!) They won't compare to your trusty 15C, but they are good, usable RPN (or should I say, RPL) machines.

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #7 Posted by Randy Sloyer on 25 Aug 2003, 9:13 p.m., in response to message #6 by Paul Brogger IMO, while the 28 series may have a great alpha keyboard, it stinks as a general purpose scientific. Just try to find logs or 10^X without going through a menu pick. Doooaahh as Homer would say. At least the 48 series did that right. Much too painful for me. I guess I shut down when the concept of X<>Y turned into a shifted function, aka swap, it was time for me to go...

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #8 Posted by Vassilis Prevelakis on 25 Aug 2003, 11:24 p.m., in response to message #1 by Dave Having used the HP-15C, be prepared for a culture shock when moving to a 28C/S or a 48. The reason is that the new machines have RPL. This means that the stack is no longer 4 deep (can be as big as there is memory), and that some things behave differently. Personally I hate it. I hated my 28C and I hate my 48SX and 48GX. On machines like the 15C everything is up there on the keyboard. On the RPL machines you have to go down various menus till you hit the function you want. Having said that, I think that a more recent machine (like the 48) is a better choice because of the larger screen and generally decent quality. **vp

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #9 Posted by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen on 26 Aug 2003, 2:51 a.m., in response to message #8 by Vassilis Prevelakis The HP 48 series has the USER Mode: a redefinable keyboard. They also have the serial link for PC and even a bi-directional Sir to exhange data between two 48 without cables. The HP 28C model had memory only on it's display drivers and that is around 2K free, which is not enough for anything. Also DEFining new user functions was restricted to algebraic syntax only. Minus (not plus) there was no decent file structure system with subfolders. It's more like the stupid TI 89 in that respect. (it get's not much respect from me [pun intended]). The lack of Input other than keyboard in the 28 series makes it more of a calculator than a real computer. I'd rather buy the new hp 49g+. It has SD card, real IrDA, USB, CAS software and a lot of other goodies, plus the speed! VPN

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #10 Posted by Victor Koechli on 27 Aug 2003, 3:02 a.m., in response to message #8 by Vassilis Prevelakis That could be good news for me: If you hate your 48's, you could just as well give them to me :-))). I actually love them! Seriuosly: The large display is fantastic. Seeing multiple stack levels is very convenient, even if you just use it to crunch numbers. And with a stack replacement program like HPSauce (on the 48G/G+/GX, anyway), you'll always know how many stack levels you are using at the moment. I agree, however, that the lack of simple LastX is nasty... Cheers, Victor

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #11 Posted by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen on 27 Aug 2003, 4:02 a.m., in response to message #10 by Victor Koechli With Vectored ENTER and/or some other tricks, you can program the old LASTX behaviour to your 48/49 calculator. You may also do something like unlimited undo, etc. OR You could limit your stack size and duplicate the T-reg behavior. VPN

Re: LastX for HP-48 Message #12 Posted by Victor Koechli on 27 Aug 2003, 7:39 a.m., in response to message #11 by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen Actually, it's not so difficult to do: << DEPTH -> d << LASTARG DEPTH d - ROLLD LASTARG 1. - DROPN >> >> Although it has one major flaw: It works only once, the next time it will return the number of dropped stack entries from DROPN, and subsequent executions will always return zero. I have yet to find a way to store the original LASTARG contents back into LASTARG before the program ends. If anyone knew of a possibility... And if anyone could tell me how to increase the CMD-Stack. Type a few numbers, and gone is the last command you entered. 4 Levels is simply not enough. Cheers, Victor

Re: LastX for HP-48 Message #13 Posted by Werner Huysegoms on 27 Aug 2003, 7:58 a.m., in response to message #12 by Victor Koechli Simple. Add DUP DROP as last commands, and LASTX will be preserved Werner

LastX for HP-48 THANKS! Message #14 Posted by bill platt (les Estats Unis d'Amerique) on 27 Aug 2003, 12:30 p.m., in response to message #13 by Werner Huysegoms Victor and Werner, Thanks soooo much for your simple post! This is completely cool! Here I thought I was going to *need* the hp41 emulator running on the 48 in order to get this to happen. (See my recent post: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/forum.cgi?read=41322 Why didn't I think of writing a program myself?! It is so simple, elegant, and so far, seems absolutely robust to me. Awsome! Best regards, Bill Platt Edited: 27 Aug 2003, 12:31 p.m.

Re: LastX for HP-48 Message #15 Posted by Victor Koechli on 27 Aug 2003, 6:25 p.m., in response to message #13 by Werner Huysegoms Genious as usual. Why couldn't I think of that myself? However, what I'd like even more: being able to restore *all* LASTARG arguments. I wonder if there is a way... Cheers, Victor

Re: LastX for HP-48 Message #16 Posted by Matt Kernal (US) on 27 Aug 2003, 7:03 p.m., in response to message #15 by Victor Koechli This is IT..=> lastcmd.zip <= Written by John H. Meyers. 48G Version: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=2821 also see => vecenter.zip <= http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=2920 49G Version: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3AA768F2.F95FBC2D%40miu.edu&rnum=2 . And even though you didn't ask for it, here is a review about "lastcmd" from Carsten Dominik: "Everybody: Go and install this program. It is one of the best I have running on my HP49G. Simply the perfect function for the HIST key in RPL mode. - Carsten" I couldn't agree more! Don't leave home without it ;-) Matt

Re: LastX for HP-48 Message #17 Posted by Werner Huysegoms on 1 Sept 2003, 5:28 a.m., in response to message #15 by Victor Koechli ? what's wrong with ... LASTARG, then ? Werner

Re: LastX for HP-48 Message #18 Posted by James M. Prange on 1 Sept 2003, 6:45 a.m., in response to message #12 by Victor Koechli My program for this on the 48 series and 49G is: \<< DEPTH \-> d \<< LASTARG DEPTH d - IF DUP THEN DUP2 2. + ROLLD DROPN END DUP DROP \>> \>> If you change the command LASTARG in the above to LAST, then it will also work in the 28 series. If last arguments is disabled (flag -55 set in a 48 or 49G, or flag 31 clear in a 28), then the program errors out. In the event that the last arguments buffer is empty, then the program returns the real number 0 to the stack and puts it in the last arguments buffer. Regards, James Edited: 1 Sept 2003, 6:50 a.m.

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #19 Posted by Ron Ross on 26 Aug 2003, 7:43 a.m., in response to message #1 by Dave Buy the 48. It is much tougher and has a better keyboard layout for number crunching compared to a 28. If you still fancy a 28, skip the 28c and buy a 28s, 2K ram is veeery little on the 28c. The 48G with 32K RAM isn't much, but with a cable, you could download 2-3 really good programs (lite versions) and have room for serveral of your own. Check out www.hpcalc.org to see what I am talking about. This resource alone actually makes it worth considering an Hp48G+ or Hp48GX (both have 128K RAM, the GX can be expanded to 3.5 Meg). My first Hp was a 15c (which is still my favorite), but I wouldn't leave it at work. A 48? Who cares? (I am not quite that flipiant). But the 28/48's do have many feature you will really appreciate. Just look at the programs from www.hpcalc.org .

Re: Buying a Used HP Message #20 Posted by dave on 26 Aug 2003, 3:41 p.m., in response to message #19 by Ron Ross Thanks to all for the great suggestions. I am leaning towards the 48 and probably the cheapo G model. I don't typically use the calculator for anything complicated (i.e. running a program), but I would like some of the advanced functionality (i.e. complex math, matrix math, etc.) and RPN computations. I'm so accustomed to RPN entry that it's hard to explain. It's so logical. I bought a TI-36 solar calculator a few years ago to provide a backup and travel calculator ( I travel a lot for work), but I hate using it. It's not a bad little calculator for the money, but I really would like to have another HP. I'd love to run across a $1.50 HP-15C at a garage sale somewhere. :) Thanks again...

Cheapo RPN Scientific: No Such Animal Message #21 Posted by Patrick on 26 Aug 2003, 5:19 p.m., in response to message #20 by dave You know, even if you do come across a 15C for $1.50 at a garage sale, its not like you think of it as a cheap calculator once you have it. No matter what you paid for it, you know you could get a bunch of money for it if you sold it, and that's what drives your behaviour in how you use it. I know, I have an HP-10C that I got for $20, but do you think I leave that baby hanging around unguarded on my desk or toss it non-chalantly into my briefcase at the end of the day? Not a chance. It is pampered every bit as much as if I had paid $150 for it. The only solution to this is for there to be a cheap RPN that is simultaneously cheap and easy to replace.

Re: Cheapo RPN Scientific: No Such Animal Message #22 Posted by Bill (Smithville, NJ) on 26 Aug 2003, 8:18 p.m., in response to message #21 by Patrick Come on, people. It's just a calculator. I have my HP-11C, 15C, and 41CV laying around at work. They are MEANT TO BE USED!!!! I enjoy taking a different HP calculator to work every few days. But the HP-11C, 15C and 41CV stay at work, as well as another HP-11C that stays in my briefcase. I plan to pick up another 42S to keep at work also. If we don't use them on a daily basis, how can we expect HP to make a quality replacement that we'd all love to use???? HP will NEVER make a calculator that we think they should make as long as we are only willing to collect them, admire them and put them on a pedastal. We have to be willing to USE them!! HP is not in the business of making collectable calculators, but are in the business of making calculators that will be bought and used - no matter what we, as colletors, think. I don't care how much I can get for my calculators - I carry them with me, I use them, and ... YES ... I will be sorry if they get stolen, but I will have used them for what they were intended for - TO CALCULATE!! Sorry for the RANT, but I really love to calculate with them, and think we too often forget what they were designed for.

Re: Cheapo RPN Scientific: No Such Animal Message #23 Posted by Patrick on 27 Aug 2003, 3:53 a.m., in response to message #22 by Bill (Smithville, NJ) I don't remember saying anything about not using them? At work I have an HP-11C, an HP-12C, an HP-15C, an HP-42S, and an HP-48G. In my briefcase is another HP-11C and sometimes other ones. While I use these wonderful machines, my point was that I don't abuse them, even when the purchase price was relatively small. I value them in spite of their original cost.

Re: Cheapo RPN Scientific: No Such Animal Message #24 Posted by Bill (Smithville, NJ) on 27 Aug 2003, 11:29 a.m., in response to message #23 by Patrick Patrick, Sorry - didn't mean to go off the way I did. I'm sure the majority of us do use their calculators. I just wanted to point out that the true value is in the using, not what it would sale for on e-bay. After re-reading my previous post, I guess I must of had a bee up my bonnet when I wrote it... :)

NP! Message #25 Posted by Patrick on 27 Aug 2003, 2:20 p.m., in response to message #24 by Bill (Smithville, NJ) Hey, no problem, Bill. One of the attractions of this place for me is the passion people have about this topic. At the end of the day, we seem to be in violent agreement: my main enjoyment is in using (specifically, programming) these wonderful devices. That is not to say that I don't also have a few rather minty devices that I keep tucked away for the occasional fondling session. Nevertheless, if I only had one sample of a particular type of machine, I would use it (carefully), even if it was mint! What's the point of a mint machine if it doesn't get used? Might as well have a picture of it instead.

Re: Cheapo RPN Scientific: No Such Animal Message #26 Posted by db(martinez,california) on 28 Aug 2003, 9:44 p.m., in response to message #24 by Bill (Smithville, NJ) Bill; It isn't a rant if it's not all in one paragraph. :-)

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