HP Forum Archive 13

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Help--Hp Calculator Message #1 Posted by AC on 27 June 2003, 10:21 a.m. Hi everyone Is there an HP non programable calculator thats really good? Preferably RPN and similar to the HP49g (NONE Programable). Have a teacher that wont allow programables, and, well, im just really used to RPN. TY [AC]

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #2 Posted by Paul Brogger on 27 June 2003, 11:21 a.m., in response to message #1 by AC Nope. RPN is a rare commodity these days, and you won't find a non-programmable graphing HP RPN calculator. In fact, I think you'd have to go back to the low-end Spice LED models (31E, 33E) to get an RPN non-programmable calculator at all. (Not bad calculators to have, I must say -- I'm looking for one of either myself, but certainly they're not graphics-capable.) Have you offered to excute a "CLEAR PGM" function at the start of each class? (As a way to make a programmable calculator "acceptable", that is.) Does this instructor give any justification for ruling out intelligent application of automation to iterative and/or repetitive tasks in arriving at solutions?

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #3 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 27 June 2003, 11:47 a.m., in response to message #2 by Paul Brogger Hi, Paul; just a remind: for sure it's a typo, but the two non-programmable Spices are the HP31E and HP32E. Best regards. Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil

Re: Er, YEAH! That's what I MEANT to say . . . Message #4 Posted by Paul Brogger on 27 June 2003, 1:34 p.m., in response to message #3 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) . . . and I had the MoHPC list of Spice models open next-door in a second browser . . . Ooops! Thanks for paying close attention, Luiz!

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #5 Posted by Patrick on 27 June 2003, 1:27 p.m., in response to message #2 by Paul Brogger Some school districts provide to teachers lists of the key sequences which clear various models of calculators. If you demonstrate the clear mechanism to your teacher in advance of an exam, s/he might be more accepting. Suggest you also point him/her at this thread to see that even the "experts" agree that you have to go back over 20 years to find an RPN without programmability!

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #6 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 27 June 2003, 3:34 p.m., in response to message #1 by AC He Patrick, AC, guys... All "scientifc" HP calcualtors with LCD-display are programmable, even the "humble" HP10C. NO way out. Anyway, low-end financial are not, like the HP14B and HP10B. If I am not wrong, the HP10BII is alos non-programmable. THe fact is that these beauties do not have trigs and some math facilities. I think Patrick's is the berst solution. His suggested approach may be of immense help. Why not to try? As a teacher, I encourage students to use calculators the right way. Unfortunately, local students I deal with use Casio, HP6S and other low-end, not programmable, strictly school-use calculators. To be honest, they need to count more on their own than on the equipment. I show them how to compute final calcualtions and reason about the problem as a first step. Success and good examinations. Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #7 Posted by Richard Garner on 27 June 2003, 4:13 p.m., in response to message #1 by AC One argument you might try to make is, that to program the calculator with the equations for entry of the variables, you have to know the equation and how to use it before programming it in. Although with the calculators having equation editors and solvers built in, that is starting to be a very weak argument than in the past.

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #8 Posted by Peter Zechner on 29 June 2003, 9:11 a.m., in response to message #7 by Richard Garner The simplest solution is...you just don't tell. My son, now more than 20 years ago, had the same problem that teachers won't allow programmable calculators (forgetting that not the programmable thing but the non programmable does the damage on your thinking) HP calculators are so rare, that most teachers don't know them! Erase or tape over the "program key" and everthing will be ok. regards Peter

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #9 Posted by AC on 29 June 2003, 12:33 p.m., in response to message #8 by Peter Zechner Hi That would be nice, however, i have the 49g, and well, its a bit obvious with that one lol. I think that the HP 17Bii or 19Bii would be nice, but those are way to expensive. Im willing to spend up to 100$, and alli care for now is an equation solver. What options do i have? BTW, thanks to all that have helped! [ac

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #10 Posted by David Smith on 27 June 2003, 4:19 p.m., in response to message #1 by AC You might also consider the HP35, 45, or 21. All nice LED, non programmable models. Also the HP91.

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #11 Posted by AC on 27 June 2003, 6:27 p.m., in response to message #1 by AC Tried everything, still has to be non programable. I see now that RPN probably isnt an option. But what i would still like a lot is an equation solver built in. and calc fit into this??(none programable+eq solver). Doesnt have to contain trig functions, but better if it does. Thanks [AC]

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #12 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 27 June 2003, 6:41 p.m., in response to message #11 by AC Hi, AC; any equation solver means equation entry/edit. This way, an RPN/algebraic selectable with equiation solver plus trigs and some more is the HP19BII. It's a clamshell like the HP28S and is not EXACTLY programmable, you can use the argument that it's a financial calculator with SOLVE and it has algebraic entry to allow equation to be entered/edited to be used by SOLVE. Good luck. The HP19BII can still be found as almost new. Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil Edited: 27 June 2003, 6:42 p.m.

Seems that the 17BII is adequate Message #13 Posted by Renato on 29 June 2003, 12:02 a.m., in response to message #11 by AC Donīt you agree ?

If TRIGS are not a must, I agree... Message #14 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 29 June 2003, 12:51 a.m., in response to message #13 by Renato Hi Renato, Ac, guys; Mostly based in his last post, where AC mentioned TRIGS are not necessary, I agree with you: the HP17BII is less expensive, smaller and has almost everyhting the HP19BII has, and one of the exceptions is TRIGS. Anyway, if you have the time and the need, AC, TRIGS can be programmed. Look at this article by W. Bruce McGuire II. Best regards and good luck. Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil

Re: If TRIGS are not a must, I agree... Message #15 Posted by Karl Schneider on 29 June 2003, 6:31 p.m., in response to message #14 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) None of the HP financial calc's with which I am familiar (I own the 12C, 10B, and 17Bii) have trigs -- maybe the 19B/ii? Just curious: Is there any practical application of trigonometric functions for business/finance (excluding calculation of biorythms and constellation positions for making business decisions)?

Re: If TRIGS are not a must, I agree... Message #16 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 29 June 2003, 6:45 p.m., in response to message #15 by Karl Schneider Hi, Karl; Quote: None of the HP financial calc's with which I am familiar (I own the 12C, 10B, and 17Bii) have trigs -- maybe the 19B/ii? Yes, the HP19BII not only has a complete TRIGS set with DEG/RAD selection (no GRAD angle mode), but also hyperbolics and inverses, polar<->rectangular conversions, nCk and nPk, ex-1 and ln(1+x). Quote: Is there any practical application of trigonometric functions for business/finance? This I cannot answer, but HP offered other SciFi calculators (Scientific & Financial, not Science Fiction :), being HP27 (woodstock) and HP27S (Pioneer), both with trigs and the like amongst financial resources. What for? I don't guess, but I'd like to know as well. Best regards. Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil Edited: 29 June 2003, 6:58 p.m.

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #17 Posted by bill platt on 29 June 2003, 12:31 p.m., in response to message #11 by AC AC: Hold on a minute---you say that your teacher will allow an "equation solver" but not programming? What on earth his he-she thinking? An equation solver IS PROGRAMMING! Actually, it is worse than programming---you have to understand what you are doing in a line interpreted program--but an equation solver--that allows abject abuse of the concept of learning the "fundamentals" of mathematics! Like, all the programming does is do the steps you already know how to do (and did once) to make the program, whereas a "solver" takes all the KNOWLEDGE and THOUGHT out of solving the problem! I suppose that in fact, maths teaching and learning has fallen to horrible depths, if a math teacher can be making such erroneous reasoning as allowing a solver in a mathematics course. Regrds, Bill

Re: Help--Hp Calculator Message #18 Posted by AC on 30 June 2003, 1:02 p.m., in response to message #17 by bill platt Absolutely right. But, its a fact that most teachers (high school level), all though not all tend to have little or no knowledge about calculators, if it looks big and nice, its to good, but if its sort of puny, then its usable. In this case, the teacher only knows about programing, that with it, other things can be done, but has most probably not even heard of equation solvers and stuff like that.

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