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HP Forum Archive 13

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HP 10 keyboard "pop"
Message #1 Posted by Scuba Diver on 31 May 2003, 4:01 p.m.

Hello everyone!

I found an electronics store that had some old HPs for sale, and I picked up (in addition to a couple of HP 20Ss) a 10B (NOT a 10BII!)

The unit was made in Indonesia in 1996 (S/N 3624M....) and the fit and finish is excellent. There's just one issue; the "0" key seems to make a popping sound when I press it. Other than the interesting sound effect, everything seems to be fine. The calc passes the keyboard test and it registers the "0" every time I press it.

This appears to be the only key that has this effect. I was wondering, is this a big problem? Does this problem exist in many 10Bs, or does this indicate that I'll have problems in the future? Since this was the last 10B they had in stock, I can't get it replaced, so should I be keeping my eyes open on eBay?

Although I LOVE my 17BII, I want to have a 10B for exams; some professors really get their nose out of joint when you take a "programmable" calc into an exam, so this way I'm covered.

Finally, just a question I'm curious about; what is the difference between the 10B and the 14B? Did the 14B have additional features/functions?

Thanks in advance to those who reply! B.

      
I had an HP14B...
Message #2 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 31 May 2003, 6:59 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Scuba Diver

... and I saw the HP10B manual and I tell you there are differences.

The most significant one is Cash Flow: the HP14B accepts CFj input in the same way the HP12C does, and it holds up to 22 CF input, from CF0 to CF21, with one CF0 restriction: no repetition. From C1 to C21 you may use the Nj feature, j=1 to 21. Also, it adds some extra single SOLVER-like pre-programmed formulas for Cost-Price-Markup, Old-New-%change, Total-Part-%Total an Nom%-Eff%-PP. Each of them can solve any variable given the other two.

The HP14B has many ALPHA messages and input prompts because the display is a 75 dot-matrix instead of 7-segments for each digit. Although the HP10B has some error and condition messages, the HP14B's display shows more information. And it has four general-purpose registers - R0 to R3 - against only one - M - in the HP10B.

It is a nice financial Pioneer, even being only algebraic.

If you need extended, rfined information, let me know. The guy that's holding it - my brother - asked me to give him another one, and I'm trying to find something he likes more than the HP14B, and it's getting hard to find. Anyway, I can borrow it for a while, if needed. He is a lawyer and does not like RPN and wants a programmable algebraic.

I'm still searching.

Hope this helps for now.

Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil

Edited: 31 May 2003, 9:52 p.m.

      
Re: HP 10 keyboard "pop"
Message #3 Posted by GS Leong on 31 May 2003, 7:43 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Scuba Diver

I had a key that popped on my 32sii when it was new, but it eventually went away after two or so months. Hope yours does the same because I know how annoying it is!

            
Pioneer keyboard "pop"
Message #4 Posted by Randy Sloyer on 31 May 2003, 8:53 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by GS Leong

Many of the Pioneer models made in Indonesia have that annoying trait. It can happen anywhere on the keyboard, sometimes one, two and maybe as many as four keys in an area will do it. One of my service replacement 42S (Thank you Johnny!) made in 2000 has a poppy + key. It hasn't changed in a year of use.

IMO it is due to a change in the specification or the manufacturer of the biaxial oriented polyester sheet used to form the keyboard dome sheets from.

There is nothing you can do but live with it.

      
HP14B vs 10B (long)
Message #5 Posted by Ellis Easley on 31 May 2003, 10:08 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Scuba Diver

I'm not a regular financial calculator user but I have several including a 14B. A while back I learned how to use them in the process of figuring out how to operate a TI Business Analyst (an LED model in the family with the TI57) without a manual. Later I tried to provide a comparison of the 12C and 14B for someone here on the Forum, and I became familiar with the more advanced functions. So I have reviewed what I learned to give you this comparison of the 10B and the 14B.

First, the 14B has 5 by 7 dot matrix digits like the 32SII instead of the 7 segment digits of the 10B. The annunciators are a little different than the ones on the 32SII, for one thing because the 14B has one shift key and the 32SII has two - maybe the 14B LCD is the same as the 32S.

The 14B uses menus. For a minute, I thought the 14B didn't do cash flow calculations because there is no "CFj" button but it turns out the cash flow list entry is done by pressing "NPV" or "IRR" at the beginning instead of at the end, these keys prompt you to enter a new cash flow list or use the existing one. The 10B lets you enter an initial cash flow plus 14 cash flow groups with up to 99 cash flows per group. The 14B lets you enter an initial cash flow plus 21 cash flow groups with up to 999 cash flows per group. I've always wondered how financial calculators stow away the extra few digits for the number of cash flows per group! Both calculators use some of the cash flow registers for storing statistics data but the 10B uses 6 registers in the middle of the cash flow list while the 14B uses 12 registers at the end of the cash flow list, so the 14B allows you to share them: if your cash flow list only has up to 9 cash flow groups (plus the initial cash flow), it will be preserved while you use statistics operations.

The 14B has three applications that aren't on the 10B: Return On Investment, Break-Even Analysis and Inventory Turnover Rate. The 14B has a "Compute" button (shift "Input") which is not on the 10B - it is used in the three special applications since their variables don't have their own buttons. The "Compute" button is also used in the "NPV" and "IRR" menus - since those buttons are pressed at the beginning. After you are satisfied with your cash flow lists, you press "Compute" to calculate NPV or IRR.

Both calculators do one or two variable statistics but the biggest difference is that the 14B does curve fitting with four models (linear, exponential, log or power) while the 10B only does linear regression. Under Statistics, Curve Fitting on the 14B you can choose one of the four models or let the calculator choose the model with the best fit. There is a separate Forecast menu that automatically chooses the model with the best fit.

There are some little differences in the way statistics are done in general. The 14B has a menu choice to display "b", the Y intercept (in the linear model, other values in other models); the 10B has you forecast the Y value for X=0 to get the Y intercept. The 10B has buttons for both sample and population standard deviation; the 14B has you calculate the mean and add it to the summation and then calculate the sample standard deviation, to calculate the population standard deviation.

The 14B had four independent storage registers, R0 - R3. The 10B has one, M. The 10B also lets you STO and RCL 0 - 9 and .0 - .4 but these address the cash flow/statistics registers.

Both calculators do conversions between Nominal and Effective interest rates which are important for Canadian mortgages. The 14B has three separate registers that are shared by this function and two kinds of percentage calculations and cost-price-margin calculations. The 10B has four separate registers plus shares the I/YR register to do pretty much the same bunch of calculations. The 10B has an explicit "Markup" button; the 14B does markup as an implicit result of the "% Change" calculation.

Because the 14B uses menus (mostly on shifted keys) to access some functions that are shifted keys on the 10B, some of these functions take three or four keystrokes to access on the 14B instead of two on the 10B - but on the 10B the second functions of function pairs (like "mean of X,mean of Y") take four keystrokes because "Swap", which is like "X<->Y", is a shifted function. The 14B doesn't have a button like "Exit" on the 17BII that always takes you back one level in a menu (although the "backspace" key does function this way in the multi-level menus but only up to the point where you select a bottom level function). So, for instance, it takes three keystrokes to calculate the mean of X values and then another three keystrokes to calculate the mean of Y values on the 14B compared to two keystrokes for the mean of X and then another two keystrokes for the mean of Y on the 10B. But this is alleviated in the Forecast and Statistics, Fit menus of the 14B when forecasting X or Y values for your entered Y or X values - you can press the "down" button to enter another Y or X value without having to start over.

By now I think you can tell that I can operate these calculators but I'm not really familiar enough with the functions to be able to say which calculator has implemented them better!

I left out the TVM program - as far as I can tell it works the same on both calculators - both use "Interest per Year" (as opposed to "Interest per Period" on the 12C) and have a "Periods per Year" variable that defaults to 12 but can be changed. I don't know why the 14B needs 12 registers for statistics unless it is in support of the different models for curve fitting. The 14B has a "Show" button to display all digits of a number, the 10B doesn't.

            
14B vs 10B and new HP financials?
Message #6 Posted by Scuba Diver on 31 May 2003, 11:10 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by Ellis Easley

You guys are amazing!! The amount of knowledge that the group posesses is mindboggling!

Thanks to all of you for your insights (espcially you, Ellis!) Although I am not planning on using my 10B all that much (it's really just for exams...my 17BII and 19BII are my day-to-day calcs for school and my 12C sits on my desk at work), the popping 0 was driving me nuts, so I bought a NIB Singapore one on eBay this afternoon for $20.

Now on to something completely different...I was on the HP website today and read a note from the General Manager of HP calculators. I don't know about you, but this guy worries me. Anyone who would describe the 10BII as a "perennial favourite" should have his head examined...anyhow, I was reading an announcement that there will be two financial calculators launched shortly; one is in the next few weeks and the other one later in the year.

I found this news both exciting and disappointing. On the one hand, it was nice to see that HP was going to launch some new calcs to replace the 17BII and 19BII, however I was disappointed because all of their recent launches (the 9S, 9G and 12CP) have been non-events, IMHO. The 9G and 9S are nothing but rebranded junk, and the 12CP was poorly designed and tested. So, in short, I'm not getting too excited about these new financials.

Having said that, I am keeping an open mind. Since there were a few closet 12CP beta testers out there, I was wondering...is anyone beta testing these new HPs? Any insights?

Personally, if they took the 17BII, moved some of the TVM stuff OFF the menus and ONTO keys, added bi-directional IR communication, bumped up the memory and kep it in a pioneer-style case, I'd be happier than a pig in...well, you know...

Comments? B.

      
Re: HP 10 keyboard "pop"
Message #7 Posted by bill platt on 31 May 2003, 10:44 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Scuba Diver

My blue/green indonesia 32sii (which I use every day) has the clicky-pop on some keys. My previous two (singaporean) brown 32sii-s did not. Other than the color change, the clicky-pop sound was the first thing I noticed about it.

I have a brown indonesian 20s which is much more like the singaporean brown 32sii's inb keyboard feel. But really, every one that I have now (one blue/green 32sii, one brown 32sii, two 20s browns, and also two 48g series), have their own slight individual feel.

Calculators are not like McDonalds' burgers...there is some individuality.....

            
Re: HP 10 keyboard "pop"
Message #8 Posted by Scoba Diver on 31 May 2003, 11:19 p.m.,
in response to message #7 by bill platt

Hi Bill!

I agree; each one of my calcs is unique...however the clicky pop is not what I would expect from an HP.

Continuing with the McDonald's theme...this 10B is like a Big Mac that has been sitting under the heatlamp for a couple of days...yes, it's a Big Mac, but I wouldn't want to eat it!

B. P.S. I also have two Indonesian 20Ss from 1996 and their keyboards are perfect...just like my calcs from Singapore. Perhaps the reduction in quality was done on a model-by-model basis; first it was the 10B, then came the others...

      
Re: HP 10 keyboard "pop"
Message #9 Posted by David Smith on 1 June 2003, 12:02 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Scuba Diver

I had a 41CV with a clicky pop to a key. I put a drop of Break Free oil on a brush and swished it under and around the key... no more pop.


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