HP Forum Archive 10

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Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #1 Posted by Bob on 4 Feb 2003, 8:34 a.m. I see many posts talking about the 42S and even some favorably comparing it to later designs. I use an HP48GX on a daily basis and I think that it is a great calc. I like the 42S as well, but what is it about this calculator that makes it such a standout ? Speed, size, better design, scarcity, ?

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #2 Posted by Chan Tran on 4 Feb 2003, 8:50 a.m., in response to message #1 by Bob I am wondering the same thing. It seems that to many the 42 is more valuable than either the 41 or the 48. May be because its small size?

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #3 Posted by John Smith on 4 Feb 2003, 9:14 a.m., in response to message #1 by Bob Several reasons: - size: HP42S is smaller and lighter than HP48/49, much more convenient to carry around, easier to hold in your hand - feature set: HP42S has most of the functions a technical user would ever need. Symbolic math and other allegedly esoteric features are of little everyday use. - compatibility: the fact that HP42S' function set is a superset of HP41C's is extremely important. You can key in almost all the many thousands of programs for the 41C series with little or no conversion whatsoever required. That you can't do with an HP48/49, unless using special software/hardware - ease of use: many people prefer classical 4-level RPN stack plus Last X than RPL's indefinite stack and strict adherence to postfix notation. You can do virtually any calculation using the 4-level stack, and it's easy to visualize. You also get automatic top level replication, which is very convenient. You always have LastX available, and you can't get an error trying to execute some function with insufficient arguments in the stack, as the stack is always 4-level deep and can't really be 'empty'. On the other hand, it's very easy to get lost while trying to keep in mind a variable number of arguments in a large number of stack registers, you can't be 100% sure that LastArg is enabled (and frequently it isn't, to save memory), you don't get top level replication, and you can get unexpected errors if the stack gets empty. - language: RPL is perhaps far too complicated for casual users, with its strict adherence to postfix notation, and thus it's more difficult to write casual programs on it, debug them, and understand them a few months later. It was already somewhat difficult with classical RPN, but RPL increases the difficulty by an order of magnitude. - quality: HP42S operating system is a thoroughly debugged product, with few bugs and no important ones. HP48/49's is buggier, and has required a number of iterations to bring it to an acceptably stable state. It's been the case that you couldn't really trust the answers it gave, while I have yet to see some worst-case example of a wrong result given by an HP42S. - documentation: HP42S shipped with two large, thick, quality spiral manuals, of very high, classical HP quality. Not so with the HP48/49. There are many more reasons, but these few will give an idea.

Two small corrections Message #4 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo (Germany) on 4 Feb 2003, 7:38 p.m., in response to message #3 by John Smith Hi, there are two points where I don't fully agree: - quality: HP42S operating system is a thoroughly debugged product, with few bugs and no important ones. HP48/49's is buggier, and has required a number of iterations to bring it to an acceptably stable state. It's been the case that you couldn't really trust the answers it gave, while I have yet to see some worst-case example of a wrong result given by an HP42S. The HP-48's (almost all revisions) are nearly bug-free. Don't mix HP-48 with 49G, these are two different pairs of shoes. - documentation: HP42S shipped with two large, thick, quality spiral manuals, of very high, classical HP quality. Not so with the HP48/49 Again, a small correction. My HP-42S was shipped with *one* extremely good manual. It's the HP-48 series which came with *two* extensive and excellent manuals. Like above, this does *not* apply to the 49G. For the 42S and HP-48, there were both spiral-bound and paperback available. For the 42S, there exists a 'loose-leaf' version of the manual, too. Regards, Raymond

Re: Two small corrections Message #5 Posted by Joe Edwards on 4 Feb 2003, 11:16 p.m., in response to message #4 by Raymond Del Tondo (Germany) I hate to correct you, but the HP 42s DID come with two spiral bound books: 1. The owners manual, and 2. The Programming Examples and Techniques Book I am looking at them both right now. Joe Edwards

Re: Two small corrections Message #6 Posted by Raymond Del Tondo on 5 Feb 2003, 3:59 a.m., in response to message #5 by Joe Edwards No problem if I'm wrong. Hmm. Did they both fit inside the box? Maybe packaging was different for different countries. I thought the 2nd book had to be bought separately. Thank you for the clarification. Regards, Raymond

Mine came with one manual too.... Message #7 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 4 Feb 2003, 11:23 p.m., in response to message #4 by Raymond Del Tondo (Germany) Hi; my HP42S (two) came with one manual only. I bougth the Programming Techniques, but it does not come as standard. I heard that there is a paperback version of the HP42's manual; I am not sure if this is the one you can by as a spare. Is it correct? If I am not wrong, Gordon Dyer has one of them (or one of each?). I also add to the HP42S the easiness when manipulating complex data and matrices in the stack. Matrices behave almost like the same as in the HP15C (editing is easier in the HP42S) but complex maipulation is somewhat different. As the only RPN models that deal with complex numbers are the HP42S and the HP15C, one should note that they deal with them in a different way (no Imaginary Stack in the HP42S, a complex number may be "disassembled" in two real parts with one function in the HP42S, Re<>Im only in the HP15C, and others). Anyway, its a great companion. Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #8 Posted by Don Davis on 4 Feb 2003, 9:17 a.m., in response to message #1 by Bob My opinion is that the 42S offers the best combination (or maybe compromise) between size and features. It is definitely slower than the 48GX, but fast enough for most of my activities. One big advantage of the 41C when it came out (to me) was the ability to program alpha prompts to get input from the user, and then label outputs as necessary. This makes it much easier to operate programs which are only occasionally used. The 42S retains this feature, and adds the capability of soft keys for running programs or for data input and output. Of the 3 you mentioned, only the 42S is a true "shirt pocket" calculator, although the 41C is not too much larger. The 48GX is a great calculator, but less convenient to carry because of the extra size. (I also feel a little silly in a meeting whipping that monster out just to add up a column of numbers, but that's just me!) I prefer the keys on the 41C, but overall the 42S is my choice to carry around for everyday use. It does have drawbacks, including the inconvenient method of entering alpha characters. So, that's why I love the 42S. I can't wait until HP releases its replacement very soon. It will have similar features, but a faster processor and of course, the traditional "old style" HP quality and style. . . . OK, I just made up that last part. best regards, Don

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #9 Posted by Ed Mabillard on 4 Feb 2003, 10:49 a.m., in response to message #8 by Don Davis Hello Don Davis, your last sentence: "I can not wait until HP releases its replacement" speaking of the 42S, as I can see I am not the only dreamer, someone that Carli disappointed profoundly, and make me hate new HP products. sincerly, Ed

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #10 Posted by Lucien Gisclong on 4 Feb 2003, 12:06 p.m., in response to message #9 by Ed Mabillard Dear Ed, I do agree with you, after my Hp41 had hp 28s hp48g and hp49 the worst (ugly and fast when you don't wait 5 seconds to see the key you pushed on the screen). I recently purchased a new old stock hp41 and a 42s, life is beautiful again. But Hp now manufacture widely sold consumer products. I have also a HP200lx which is much more interesting and powerful than Windows ce products. It is the same thing for computers, we don't have anymore the choice, even Linux try to copy windows. We are living a curious period where very powerful systems are less useful than former simple systems. Cheers, Lucien

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #11 Posted by Paul Guertin on 4 Feb 2003, 9:21 p.m., in response to message #8 by Don Davis I often wish HP had made an HP 42Sii, with a second shift key, fewer menus, and the other improvements the 32Sii had over the 32S.

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #12 Posted by Richard Garner on 4 Feb 2003, 10:18 a.m., in response to message #1 by Bob These are reasons why I like the 42S: Its size, it fits extremely well in the shirt or jacket pocket, it easily fits in the hand and lite weight. Very easy to program on the fly. I use a 48GX on a daily basis, but it is NOT easy to program on the fly to do repetative quick and dirt calculation. The 42S is. So when I have to do real number crunching in the field I reach for the 42S. Program compatability with the 41CV. I can take most of the programs I have written for my 41CX and directly key them in with little to no changes. The keyboard is laid out well with most of the functions needed on the keys or just one level down on a menu. The 4 level stack is much easier to work with. I use a 48GX daily, but if I had a 42S with the read/write IR, the unit conversions and the memory of the 48GX, I wouldn't need anything else.

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #13 Posted by Ron Ross on 4 Feb 2003, 10:29 a.m., in response to message #12 by Richard Garner My sentiments exactly.

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #14 Posted by Joe Edwardsa on 4 Feb 2003, 1:05 p.m., in response to message #1 by Bob YEP. I am about to buy my third 42s this week. You can never have too many back ups! I just sold the 48g+ I got in the bookstore, it is just too big and SLOW when entering equations...at least my TI 83+ can keep up with me. BUT I prefer the 42s over any others so far. Joe

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #15 Posted by Bill Wiese on 4 Feb 2003, 4:28 p.m., in response to message #1 by Bob Because lots of us DON'T like the 28S/48/49 calculators. They may be good for math students without access to a PC - but that's getting to be a moot point today. (Except for exams, etc.) Clearly HP is targeting the 'educational' market, and makes the assumption that these days anyone else needing a calc will be well-satisfied by same. It's a real indictment of HP calc product strategy that discontinued HP calcs are worth MORE used than your current high-end products. (This is even aside from collectibility issues - I think most people buying 42S, 41C|V|X and 15C calcs are buying these to *USE* or for future use since there's no confidence in HP's calculator future. Life is busy - I work for a living and I don't have time to inclination to learn a radically new calc. Plus, for the more elaborate problems the 48 is able to solve, I can use a PC with Matlab, Excel, or custom C or BASIC program to do what I need - quickly, and with a nice screen and keyboard. Don't need pocket portability for these kinda solutions. But for "thinking with numbers" while in the easy chair, at a coffee shop poring over papers, etc. there's nothing like the ease of use of a 42S (or even a 41CV for that matter). These calcs have *real* RPN (4 level XYZT stack + LastX) unlike the "topless" stack of the 48, which I never liked - maybe it's useful for a programming abstraction but for nonprogrammatic hand calculation it's lame. Programming is easy and functions are sufficient for solving lots of problems - esp on the 42S with complex math, matrix math, etc. functions and menuing functions, 2 line display, etc. I had a 28S. I played with it for a week and gave it to a friend. I had a 48S; I played with it for 2 weeks and gave it to another friend. I now have 3 41C/Vs and a 42S (as well as a 16C and an 11C and 15C for the heckuvit.) It's not that I'm resistant to change - I just don't need to change for change's sake. I'm sure the 28/48/49 calcs solve someone's problems and that they are 'nice' calcs. They're just not right for me - and I'm a number-crunching SOB. Bill Wiese San Jose, CA

I use them all Message #16 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 4 Feb 2003, 11:51 p.m., in response to message #15 by Bill Wiese Hi; after I used the HP28C for the first time I felt myself compelled to review almost everything I had about algebraic manipulation. I was lazy at that time and I must admit: I reinforced my algebraic knowledge by comparing the HP28 manipulations and results with the books' answers. Mostly when dealing with Taylor's expansion and related derivatives. I do not complain. But later, when I tried multilevel stack and structured programming (at that time I knew only ForTran and BASIC, no C yet) I felt amused: it was a lot easy to "see" the program "algorythm": all clauses surrounded by IF..THEN..END or START..NEXT or FOR..STEP or CASE... THEN... END. I remember I felt those two worlds so much related to each other that I wrote a book (the only one I wrote so far) about it. I knew about Wickes' "HP41/HP48 Transitions" when I was writing mine and I never read it (so far, too). I even wrote him a few letters and sent him a signed sample when the book was released. I use and program both types the same way, I cannot compare which is better then the other. I have one HP28S, one HP48SX, two HP48G+ (black- and blue-dot LCD), one HP49G, one HP41CX and two HP42S. They are different concepts. Just my US$0.05

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #17 Posted by Christof on 5 Feb 2003, 2:15 a.m., in response to message #15 by Bill Wiese I find the RPL machines to be quite nice as portable computing devices, but not really *good* programmable calculators. the 42S can handle a lot of code- enough for decent algo testing, while it is a fantastic calculator as a calculator. It is missing a few thing that 16 has, but nothing is ever perfect and with 32k...... I don't see my 48GX as a necessarily *worse* machine than the 42S, but they are very fundamentally different. (the 48, though, still compares favorably with my visors, jornadas, and wizards as a PDA, and beats them all in independent extensibility.) the 41, though.... well, given what the 41 is capable of, it sucks to have to hunt so much to try and maybe find a paname or PPC, Xmem, and X I/O module to finish making it functionally better than the 42. (someone PLEASE start producing roms, if there is any way to get rights to) the 41 would maybe even outdo the 42 if I had good IO.

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #18 Posted by Richard Stanaway on 4 Feb 2003, 4:37 p.m., in response to message #1 by Bob The 42 and 32 were the epitome of compact handheld numerical computing. HP are talking about new RPN/RPL calculators being released by the end of the year, so hopefully they bring out something which also takes advantage of developments in electronics over the last ten years. However good the HP42 was, it still suffered two fatal drawbacks; 1. No Input device other than the keyboard. 2. Memory losses during battery changes. 1 is painful because of 2. have you ever had to reenter and test hundreds of keystrokes of program after memory loss ? An excellent calculator which could replace the 42 might have some of the following characteristics; 1. I/O via Infrared and/or USB/serial port 2. same size and weight as the old 42 3. rechargeable 1 x AAA /DC input 4. same keyboard layout, but with alpha shift 5. similar programming language to 41/42 6. same speed as the old 42, or faster 7. Throughly researched manual 8. same build quality as the 41. 42 wasn't perfect Because of some of these reasons, I prefer the 48 to the 42 for professional use.

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #19 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 5 Feb 2003, 12:18 a.m., in response to message #18 by Richard Stanaway Hi; my two HP42S can hold memory contents for at least two minutes (I never tested for more than this) and one of them is expanded for 32KBytes (Thanks, Randy...). I can think of three reasons for that behavior: 1) inadvertently pressing a key during battery change 2) a small capacitor, parallel with the batteries, with a cold soldering 3) inadvertently shorting terminals while changing batteries I once almost hold a dummy guy by his throat when he offered himself to change the batteries of my HP42S (about 6 years ago) and I allowed him to... The stupid fellow used a pair of tweezers and I did not see it until was inserting the third battery and holding it by its poles (shortening the battery; of course they would live for a shorter time and I would have to come back soon... usual silly behavior for silly people in Brazil). I yelled him a tremendous "STOP, SH..!" and I also saw a tremendous [MEMORY CLEAR] in the display. I left the guy telling me it was something very common, I should not be so bothered... and I yelled him a "SHOUT THE F... DOWN!" back. All of these in crystal clear Brazilian Portuguese. (hope nobody complains for this... silly story). Just check for the possibilities, please. Maybe there is some small detail that is enough to avoid the memory loss. My US$ 0.05 (Please, if you think this post is a bad post, be my guest: removing password is 12345)

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #20 Posted by Kris Collins on 5 Feb 2003, 12:16 p.m., in response to message #19 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) Luiz, my friend, don't stop writing. Personally I enjoy your posts very much. I understand completely what you are trying to say. Please continue.

Thank you! Message #21 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 5 Feb 2003, 1:51 p.m., in response to message #20 by Kris Collins HI; this is something that we do not hear everyday... specially today, when I'm looking for job... I found gold! Thank you! You literally saved my day. (I needed that) Best regards

Re: Thank you! Message #22 Posted by R Lion on 5 Feb 2003, 2:12 p.m., in response to message #21 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) Looking for job... I wish you get a good one, Luiz. Kind regards Raul

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #23 Posted by David Smith on 4 Feb 2003, 5:50 p.m., in response to message #1 by Bob Apparently the HP42S also tastes very good... just ask my friend's dog...

Re: Why are 42S's so desirable ? Message #24 Posted by tom hughes on 5 Feb 2003, 7:00 p.m., in response to message #23 by David Smith I think one of the most critical reasons for the 42s' popularity is that it is easily the most powerful calculator you can take into university exams. the common criteria for allowing programmables is that they cannot be externally programmable (i.e. you cannot hook them up to a PC). Also no graphical display. Thus I can take my 42S into an exam, but not my 65.

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