HP Forum Archive 09

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$265 for a 28S Message #1 Posted by Scuba Diver on 10 Sept 2002, 10:18 p.m. Anyone been on eBay lately? A 28S went for $265 today...another one is at $156... Dave, I think it's time to update your "Collectors Corner" chart... And if anyone has a few 28Ss sitting around, this may be a good time to unload them...maybe you could use the proceeds to buy that Porsche you've always had your eye on :) B.

$718 for a 25 Message #2 Posted by Nenad Vulic (Croatia) on 11 Sept 2002, 2:30 a.m., in response to message #1 by Scuba Diver Have not seen it on eBay or elsewhere yet, but I always have one 25 to offer... :)

Re: $265 for a 28S Message #3 Posted by Raymond Hellstern on 11 Sept 2002, 5:21 a.m., in response to message #1 by Scuba Diver Hi, as I said in a similar thread, I think the buyer was a newbee, or the auction was not clean. An 28S isn't really rare. A price in that dimension could only make some sense if the machine is NEW IN BOX, and sealed, of course. And the box must be in perfect shape. Used or incomplete 28S's are relatively common, at least in Germany. Regards, Raymond

Re: $265 for a 28S Message #4 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 11 Sept 2002, 7:14 a.m., in response to message #3 by Raymond Hellstern Hi; Raymond wrote: "...or the auction was not clean." I did never bid in any auction, and I do not know the rules. When you mention a "clean" auction you are referring to an auction that has not been arranged? I mean, an auction where bids are previously arranged so the price of the object in the auction rises fast? If so, I can find a couple of friends and make an arrangement with them and try to sale something for as many times as I can till I reach the price I want? That's disgusting!

Re: $265 for a 28S Message #5 Posted by gifron on 11 Sept 2002, 1:20 p.m., in response to message #4 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) It's also very illegal.

Re: $265 for a 28S Message #6 Posted by Ellis Easley on 11 Sept 2002, 3:14 p.m., in response to message #5 by gifron But like many scams, a person can't be cheated in an auction without cooperating with the scammers by bidding more than the item is worth.

Re: $265 for a 28S -This is just a guess Message #7 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 11 Sept 2002, 3:56 p.m., in response to message #5 by gifron Gifron wrote: "It's also very illegal." Is there a way to identify such an occurrence? I imagine this situation: I have some friends and they are authorized to raise any offer and bid as much as need to get my objects. A few days later, the supposed buyer will post the same objects to be auctioned again, and that's someone else's turn to raise their prices. And this goes on and on until someone else (not one of my friends) bids over the expected value; at this moment, the others (my friends) will no longer bid. Done: I got my object sold, their prices are too high, other owners will be happy because now their own objects are more valuable, too. Let's change "objects" for "Hewlett-Packard calculators", and let's announce these auctions in a very well known site (among others, of course; but let's kake one of the best), were people deal with Hewlett-Packard calculators very often, so the annoucements will be read by as many people as the ones that visit THE site... Sci-Fi ???!!!???... Am I too wrong? Please, if there is something wrong in this analysis, let me know. And I cannot see a way to detect these maneuvers and verify if they are legal or not. (I still feel it as disgusting...)

Re: $265 for a 28S -This is just a guess Message #8 Posted by Ellis Easley on 11 Sept 2002, 4:28 p.m., in response to message #7 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) I'm no lawyer so I don't know how "shilling" is defined legally but I imagine it is in the general classification of fraud. Proof would be if the "shill" (bid raiser) could be shown to sometimes not actually purchase the item from the seller (just bid high to influence future auctions of the same or same type items), however such a transaction would still require the seller to pay a commission to the auctioneer. Ebay rules outlaw shilling but as has been pointed out here, Ebay rules do much more to protect sellers than buyers. I have heard of cases where people have sold land back and forth several times to artificially raise the price. The universal rule in all commerce is "let the buyer beware". Desire and lack of knowledge cause people to pay more than things are worth. The words "rare" and "vintage" have probably caused a lot of inflated prices. I'm getting tired of Ebay because of sellers who don't know how to pack things for shipment. Some people buy something for a dollar and sell it for a hundred dollars, then pack it like it's only worth a dollar.

Re: $265 for a 28S -This is just a guess Message #9 Posted by Scoba Diver on 11 Sept 2002, 7:23 p.m., in response to message #8 by Ellis Easley Well, I don't know if it was a co-ordinated effort, or if the buyer was simply under duress, but they could tell that they overpaid simply by doing a search on completed auctions. I think that every 28S went for under $100 US. Although it did come with two books, both of which are available on Dave's CDs... That reminds me of a time I was in Future Shop (the Canadian version of Best Buy...actually Best Buy just bought them!) and a salesman was selling an insanely obsolete machine to a customer; the reason that this was better than the new machines was because it came with a "Wordperfect keyboard template". Oh well, I digress. Far be it from me to judge; for all we know, the guy borrowed a friend's 28S and then broke it...maybe it was worth $265 US to replace it...but I think it's sad when people pay outrageous prices for something. Brendan P.S. The guy who "won" the auction was also bidding on another 28S, so I doubt that this auction was staged.

Re: $265 for a 28S -This is just a guess Message #10 Posted by gifron on 12 Sept 2002, 1:24 a.m., in response to message #8 by Ellis Easley Nor am I a lawyer, but I am an auctioneer. Bid rigging by either the seller or the bidders amounts to "restraint of trade" by artificially controlling prices (yes, I know the government does this sometimes), which is usually a violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act, a law dealing with interstate commerce. Though it is conceivable that a case can arise to which absolutely no interstate commerce can be attached, with today's interconnectedness, this generally is not the case - Especially on a venue like eBay, where the bidders and sellers are from all over the country. But as pointed out, without having a specific target, it's very difficult to catch bid riggers. And of course, no one wants to go to the trouble and expense, unless they're cheated out of a significant amount of $$$. Bummer...

Re: $265 for a 28S -This is just a guess Message #11 Posted by David Smith on 12 Sept 2002, 5:41 p.m., in response to message #10 by gifron The fine print on Ebay specifically claims that legally they are NOT an auction... just a name-your-own-price service. I don't know what this has on the legal aspects of auction bid-rigging laws, but I would assume some big bucks lawyers could have a field day duking it out.

This is getting even better... Message #12 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 12 Sept 2002, 8:05 p.m., in response to message #11 by David Smith Hi, David; as I mentioned before, I have never participate in any e-Bay "auction", but it seems to me you have openned the door for a very serious subject in here. Wow! Cheers.

Re: $265 for a 28S -This is just a guess Message #13 Posted by gifron on 13 Sept 2002, 12:33 p.m., in response to message #11 by David Smith Well, I don't think eBay would be liable for bid rigging - Just the sellers and/or bidders.

Re: $265 for a 28S Message #14 Posted by Gordon Dyer on 14 Sept 2002, 6:35 a.m., in response to message #1 by Scuba Diver I am convinced that this web site is directly responsible for the hyperinflation of HP calculators, it arouses too many fond memories and new interest! Its a good thing if you already have a collection but a big problem for us enthusiasts who would like to buy some more....

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