The Museum of HP Calculators

HP Forum Archive 08

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Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #1 Posted by Matthias Wehrli on 18 May 2002, 2:22 p.m.

I'm annoyed when I read the classfied ads today finding so many "I have a HP-xx on ebay... ". I think either I sell my items through MoHPC or I sell them through ebay. There are sellers that have dozends of items on ebay. Imagine what would happen if each of them would post each link in classified ads. A real collector fully researchs ebay and MoHPC anyway, so there is no sence in crosspostings.

I would prefer a forum in which crosspostings are not welcome. What do you think?

      
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #2 Posted by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil) on 18 May 2002, 4:14 p.m.,
in response to message #1 by Matthias Wehrli

Agree!

I think (if Dave allows to and can do it for us) a separate place for the itens available elsewhere to be offered. I agree with Matthias, it's annoying. And Dave, or anyone, could remove those wrong announcements. I remember I offered (some time ago) a programs-translation job for as many times as I could post, cause I did not understand the policy of the Classified Adds. At that time, Dave explained it again and I stopped doing that, but I did not mean to bother others. I believe if this place exists, people will use it more often.

Best regards.

            
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #3 Posted by Glen Kilpatrick on 19 May 2002, 10:58 a.m.,
in response to message #2 by Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)

I agree, reading these ads that say they've avaiable on eBay majorly tick me off, and ensure that I won't waste further thought on that seller.

This is a small, mostly friendly community here, nice people, ones I feel I can mostly trust, definitely not like the shark-infested waters of eBay. You can bet these same folks that sell on eBay would prefer to buy here. So I ask you, is that fair to our community?

Dave, I realize you've already got a full-time job with this, but would you consider either a manual removal of such, or automation that excludes posting of ads with certain "keywords" (or if that doesn't work, flags the email address, and that person can no longer post, period)?

                  
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #4 Posted by Mike Sebastian (Texas) on 19 May 2002, 11:42 a.m.,
in response to message #3 by Glen Kilpatrick

Dave experimented with removing certain keywords when he was prototyping the current Classified Ads forum. It was fairly easy to circumvent the keyword suppression in the prototype. Given the nature of the people in this community, a simple request to not post eBay notices would probably be sufficient.

Besides, eBay keyword suppression might make this forum less interesting!

                  
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #5 Posted by glynn on 19 May 2002, 4:43 p.m.,
in response to message #3 by Glen Kilpatrick

Hmm... seems you are not mad that the crossposting is taking place... but that people are using eBay.

To Matthias, who may or may not share your disappointment in eBay selling (after all, he seems to study the listings):

I think far worse is the MoHPC listing that does not SAY it is an (AUCTION). To hide that fact well into the body of the message is truly annoying.

If that alone were "enforced"-- meaning WE, not Dave, but US would send a "hey! don't you know how to use the classified listings?"... whenever we encountered an irritatingly misrepresented listing, THEN it would soon become a simple matter to scroll past all "auction" listings and only deal with the "meat" of the Classifieds, if that is your desire.

But obviously, there are folks interested in getting their message out to you collectors. To ban them doesn't really seem to be a service to collectors, now does it? "No, you can't see THAT, that's on that nasty eBay-- if you wanted one of those so badly, you'd have been poring over the listings-- no, this is the pristine "user-to-user" pool."

Or to segregate sellers into two groups provides only a NEW, less practical place to advertise. Now maybe IF you promise that, as a real collector, you will now fully research eBay, the MoHPC Classifieds AND the new MoHPC Auction Links page, I am sure they will dutifully keep to our lines of demarcation. LOL

In other words, Dave Hicks structured the MoHPC Classifieds section in a practical way-- but it has to be utilized in a manner consistent with its structure. Those that abuse it make us angry for wasting our time. I'm totally with ya on that.

Glen: each of us in our little community, consisting as it does of buyers, sellers, users, collectors and lord-knows-who-else, WANTS and NEEDS as many options as can be provided in coming together and being exposed and transacting to our mutual benefit-- and exclusivity, one-way streets and fences should only be considered in the case of a clear harm being done-- as I am sure you would agree. But eBay represents to you a danger.

Now I have had a few really disappointing experiences on eBay myself, and I have only ever BOUGHT there, but I would submit to you that if you refuse to deal with eBay as a collector, you are really missing a lot of good that comes with it. You may lament the sharks, and they are there. But you'd be surprised perhaps to find how many of our own good folk are there, too-- not sharks. I've bought stuff from people here VIA eBay as well as one-to-one via MoHPC. I'm even fairly sure I've bought stuff via MoHPC connection that the seller had once bought via eBay, maybe from a shark. My comfort level in dealing with the seller is higher when I know him/her. That is what makes me prone to look at the MoHPC classifieds... but if the seller is on eBay, and I know him/her, the merchandise and transaction are much the same. The ONLY difference is often the price-- and that's where I suspect much of eBay resentment and envy lies. But MOST of the people bidding against me on eBay are ALSO here... and those that aren't soon will be. And, ultimately, it is the price inflation of a world marketplace that increases the monetary value of any collector's collection. Would I deny my fellow collectors the use of any tool to buy and sell for the best profit?

Pretend I'm selling your average, run-of-the-mill red-dot. I want to get the maximum exposure I can to the community that appreciates it most. Ha, I betcha thought that line was about YOU!! (apologies to C.Simon)-- but in terms of potential return, a SPECULATIVE market offers potential returns far in excess of you people who already KNOW what the thing is worth to you.

So, if I am getting rid of my special toy, I have two choices: sell it for virtually certain moderate prices to a known "good home", a collector who will take good care of it; OR put it FIRST on a venue where "wild" and emotion-driven prices are known to abound, keep a reserve price just in case, and THEN alert MoHPC people--- so I can hopefully sell it for an Outrageous price to a known good home. Hey, isn't this, after all, the behavior you are observing, or what?

The eBay seller is not choosing a strategy to advertise his product ONLY to collectors. If he was, it would (possibly) make sense to use MoHPC as the sole venue. But he's listing on eBay, knowing you are both here and there, and trying to reach you both ways. He WANTS you, but not in the rarified air of a protected, insulated-from-the-rabble environment; he wants you to come out and play-- in the big seller's marketplace that is eBay.

Indeed, you collectors likely "shop" on eBay all the time. So what you are saying is that a "real" collector will never wish to be annoyed with the redundancy of seeing an auction listing posted here as well as on eBay. He will already KNOW of the listing, since he makes it his business to be informed of HP listings, so any "heads up" to our community is merely a waste of our time (heehee, UNLIKE the dozen or so semi-weekly searches you are doing on eBay's engine to find things worthy of your attention)... um, yeh, in the interests of personal efficiency you could make that case.

But advertising (and yes, that's what classifieds are) THRIVES on redundancy. The more "efficient" thing when advertising something is to reach the most people who would be interested, with the least expenditure or effort. If you happen to reach a target twice or more in that process, so be it.

As MoHPC's classified section is decent bang for zero buck, it makes perfect sense for a seller to want to provide a link from it, to his just-written auction page.

As long as the advertiser tells you in the first title line, (AUCTION), so you may scan past them in your search for (FSOBO)s, how is that different than (WTB)s or anything else in there that also competes for your eye?

                        
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #6 Posted by Matthias Wehrli on 19 May 2002, 6:31 p.m.,
in response to message #5 by glynn

I also thought about a neu posting header typ like "(Au)" for "auction".. but I think it doesn't make sence, cause we only produce a lot of datas on Daves server.... I still propose a non-written law of not posting links to ebay...

To Glynn: I do not want to stop discussions about ebay, just sellers links.

                              
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #7 Posted by Dave Hicks on 19 May 2002, 7:39 p.m.,
in response to message #6 by Matthias Wehrli

I could add an additional URL, similar to the "daily view" of this forum that would filter out anything that was posted with the AUCTION classification. Would that help?

I don't understand the idea of an (Au) vs. (Auction) header.

As for people misclassifying is that happening often? I haven't been watching for this myself. I just did a quick search and only noticed this one that was misclassified. Are there more?

                                    
no, it's an occasional thing
Message #8 Posted by glynn on 19 May 2002, 7:56 p.m.,
in response to message #7 by Dave Hicks

... and I like to see it spelt out *(AUCTION)* rather than (AU)... so I don't think of Austria, Australia or Gold. ;-)

                                    
Okay Dave: a programming challenge
Message #9 Posted by glynn on 19 May 2002, 8:23 p.m.,
in response to message #7 by Dave Hicks

I think any attempt to "filter" eBay postings would result in more misposting, wouldn't you figure so?

But there is an alternative-- IF you can arrange it, and I am loathe to ask you for more work-- but what IF:

You ask for "ad Type" already. Presumably, this is a category of data that could be searched or sorted on. So, what if we had a set of buttons "Sort by:" with WTB, AUCTION, FSOBO, etc. So all WTBs, say, could be brought to the top of our stack. As I am not a techie type, I may not be making good programming sense, so feel free to correct my misapprehensions...

But THEN, I could look at all the listings by the time they come in, as before, or only the FS, or only the AUCTION, and so on... is that a possibility?

--g.

                                    
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #10 Posted by Ren on 20 May 2002, 10:03 a.m.,
in response to message #7 by Dave Hicks

For Internet newsgroups, it is standard procedure to mark an auction posting by pre-fixing "FA:" (For Auction) to the Subject: line. For example...

Subject: FA: HP-6S calulator on Ebay!!!!!!!!!!MINT!!!!!!!!!

(p.s. I deliberately misspelled calculator B^) Personally I think people who crosspost auction items to newsgroups (or fora) are greedy scum. And those who neglect to mention that their posting is an auction link are lower than scum.

                                    
Re: Crosspostings -- How 'bout link to eBay "Search" feature?
Message #11 Posted by Paul Brogger on 20 May 2002, 11:17 a.m.,
in response to message #7 by Dave Hicks

How about a simple "Search" link to eBay, available on the appropriate MoHPC page(s). An "MoHPC standard search" that should always get currently-available HP stuff. (E.g., I generally use "HP* calculator*".)

Then, whenever anyone posts a pointer to eBay, EVERYONE could remind the poster that if s/he merely includes "HP" and "calculator" in their eBay ad, the MoHPC link will locate their item for those who wish to know what's available . . . (A convenient link to a "reminder" form letter might be a nice feature, too, to facilitate gently bringing about compliant practice!)

      
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #12 Posted by Frank Glitz on 20 May 2002, 7:30 a.m.,
in response to message #1 by Matthias Wehrli

I fully agree with Matthias. These dozens of "rare PANAME module for sale on Ebay" ads _are_ annoying. And 71Bs or 41Cxs aren't _that_ rare that it would be necessary to announce Ebay auctioning for these here. It's just another means to drive prices.

I'm interested in HP stuff for using, analyzing or repairing it, not for collecting and waiting 'til the value increases. HPs are fascinating devices and it's fascinating to _use_ them or to understand how they work. They are _no_ stamps.

I still remember times when you could find 35s or even 70s in thrift stores or at flea markets for "5 for a buck". These times are over, "thanks" to Ebay. While I paid just a few bucks for almost all the handhelds I have, I've got to pay a hell of a lot of dollars for the desktops I bought this year, just 'cause I missed on them somehow to date. I'm still looking for 9100s, but the "free for the asking" times are over. Everyone here will surely know.

Everyone who's seriously looking to find HP stuff will look here _and_ at Ebay anyway. I've a lot of search patterns stored at eBay and receive mails whenever an interesting part is put up for auction. That's sufficient I think. I don't need the "AUCTION" information here. But that's just my humble opinion of course.

I'd even remove the "AUCTION" category. It's a leftover from days where you could make good bargains on Ebay and not everyone knows about how easy it is to make tons of bucks there by selling HPs.

hpmuseum.org should remain (or, to say it more provocative) become a forum for interested collectors, not for money makers.

Greetings to everyone here, Frank

            
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #13 Posted by Chris Catotti (Florida) on 20 May 2002, 5:51 p.m.,
in response to message #12 by Frank Glitz

Wow! I have been scum and did not know it! I am guilty of "crossposting" ebay ads on the classified ads. I am also guilty of crossposting links to the HP Museum on my ebay "About Me" page, and ebay item listings if it will help educate. I do not want to be scummy, and so unless anyone wants me to crosspost on the Classified Ads, I will stop.

Am I guilty of being greedy ...? I would like to maximize the revenue for a sale so that I can aford another item. Loosley stated, my collection goal is to collect one of every document, in every language available for the models of HP Calculators I like (especially the HP-41 and HP-IL). I would rather trade items for items, but cash seems to be the common denominator, especially between USA and Europe.

Also I would like to collect on of every software module for the HP-41. I have overpaid on ebay many times, but it seems like a place to find some of the less common things. I wish I could "post" my Excel spreadsheet that lists everything I have so I could trade extra items for want items.

                  
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #14 Posted by Frank Glitz on 21 May 2002, 7:07 a.m.,
in response to message #13 by Chris Catotti (Florida)

Chris,

I think you posted your response to the wrong thread. I didn't call anyone scum, greedy or even greedy scum.

I'm just annoyed with - IMHO often "artificially" - high driven prices on Ebay. No HP-35, 65, or whatever is worth about $2,000.

I don't like supporting "Ebay Money Makers" more than necessary. Nothing else. And nothing against collectors like you if course. But who is able to distinguish if it's a serious ad or the one of a "money maker"?

This _excellent_ site shouldn't be abused.

Regards, Frank

                        
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #15 Posted by Ren on 21 May 2002, 10:07 a.m.,
in response to message #14 by Frank Glitz

Frank, I'm the one who started the name calling...(see my letter above).

Chris, I understand anyone wanting to maximize their profits, but I see crossposting as an expense that is placed on the non-buyers. They have to identify/delete the postings that are irrelevant to them. And they have to download (some of us still use modem connections) at their expense of time for something they have no interest in. If I want to buy an HP calc on eBay, then I'll GO to eBay and look for it. I don't need it shoved in my face on some newsgroup or forum. And by the seller assuming that I'm too stupid to do a search on eBay for an item I'm interested in, and that they feel they need to point it out to me, puts them in my 'negative' category. I view eBay crossposts with the same vitriol as I do any other SPAM!

Yeah, I can really talk big when I'm hiding behind a keyboard on the 'net...(sigh)

                        
Re: Crosspostings in "Classified Ads"
Message #16 Posted by Ellis Easley on 21 May 2002, 2:41 p.m.,
in response to message #14 by Frank Glitz

Regarding the recent $1900 HP-35 "NIB" - which I still don't understand why it didn't include the hard case - I don't think you can blame the seller, I love the way he told in the ad that he got the unit for free - unless you know that some shilling took place.


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