HP Forum Archive 03

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Collectors or Users? Message #1 Posted by Per Faltman on 2 July 2000, 7:23 p.m. I think it would be interesting to know if you people out there have your calcs behind glass or you really use them? I mean for example 41's. I'm an EE-engineering student so I guess I'm in the new HP user generation (am I the only one?:))Most of you out there must have been using HP's in their golden days. Must say I feel a bit envy:). The thing is 99% of todays student doesn't even know what a HP calc is. I have a 48 and a 41CV that is falling apart. Most students don't understand why I still use that old junk (41) and when I try to explain the RPN systems superiority to them they declare me insane. The thing is that many students with TI 89's have no idea what they do. And when they miss an exam they blame the teacher. I use to tell them it's better to understand what you're doing than just try to let it go through a black box. Sorry that you guys have to hear my complaints but I had to let my disappointment out somewhere...

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #2 Posted by Chuck Ratliff on 3 July 2000, 2:52 a.m., in response to message #1 by Per Faltman Like you, I have a 48 and a 41, and several others (TI 59 et. al.). With several young children in school, it is interesting to note how much marketing goes into the schools to sell lots of calcs and peripherals directly to instructors for class use, and to students at bookstores. The stated purpose for calcs is to get away from contrived book problems and allow experimentation, but many kids learn only button pushing routines and give up on the math entirely. It's a shortcut to failure for many. I just got out of college in my late 40's, and extensively used a 32SII, and a 48 with various cards, after initially learning homework solving programming with a TI 85. Just a newbie, I was amazed how I could wow the class when I went to the board and used a routine to solve a board problem. Still use the 48 at work today, and see many 41's baking on surveyors dashboards. They love 'em. RPN's great but they won't teach it, kids get the high dollar calcs and can't use them. I've enjoyed going back in time with these older units to see what I missed out on, and, even though out of school, I still do midnight programming, for old time's sake. :)

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #3 Posted by John LaRock on 3 July 2000, 7:12 a.m., in response to message #2 by Chuck Ratliff Well, the NRA coined a phrase about "pealing the cold dead hands from around" your HP calculator!! There is nothing like our HP's. I guess I am one of those miserable surveyors. I started out in college with a HP-35 and when I graduated (MS) I was still using my HP-67. A few weeks ago, a fellow HP'r from this forum, sold me a replacement 67 and 97 which I could not be happier. Now that is taking me back to when my profession was fun and enjoyable! A time when you had to think, and actions by rote was frowned on. Anyway, I showed my newbie son at (MSU) the "Best of the Best being HP-67". He snicked, and we proceded on doing some calculations by hand. Guess what guys. These old guys beat the new fangled technology HP-48GX hands down with RPN and Stack operations. Gee, it sure is easy to store those numbers in "old technology"! All I can say to him is, if you can't own the best, atleast your the sons of the best. Chris pardon the pun! Thanks guys, but I couldn't help but stick in my two cents. Keep up the good work and great site. John

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #4 Posted by Steve on 3 July 2000, 7:28 p.m., in response to message #3 by John LaRock This old brain finds that having all the functions on the keycaps or spelling them out (a la 41) beats navigating through menus. Maybe if the 48 had a mouse port, VGA interface, a full size keyboard, an Intel processor,... Damn, I've just turned it into Win95. Aaaaaaaaaaaaagh!

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #5 Posted by John on 3 July 2000, 8:41 p.m., in response to message #4 by Steve Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!! Win95. pure panic at NT!!!! There sure was a time where the calcomputer was fun... It took me a few minutes on how to learn to turn Chris's machine on! Its kinda like my old tube ham radio. Real rigs have tubes just like real calculators have LED's John

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #6 Posted by Viktor Toth on 4 July 2000, 11:39 a.m., in response to message #4 by Steve Well, actually, if spelling commands out is fine with you, you can actually spell out commands on the HP-48 if you want... it's not like you HAVE to use those menus :-) Viktor

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #7 Posted by Steve on 6 July 2000, 4:51 a.m., in response to message #6 by Viktor Toth But it's not like they make it easy or anything :-)

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #8 Posted by Viktor Toth on 7 July 2000, 7:07 p.m., in response to message #7 by Steve Well, in defense of my poor HP-48SX (my 'primary' calculator for the last 10 years or so) it's not any harder than on the HP-41. Just hit Alpha, spell the command, and hit Enter. For short commands (e.g., SF) I often use this method, and also when I cannot remember in which darned menu a command I need might be hiding :-) Viktor

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #9 Posted by Steve on 3 July 2000, 5:39 a.m., in response to message #1 by Per Faltman I am definitly in both categories. :-) The only calculators and ephemera that I have that is not used is either broken (and irrepairable) or a duplicate of something (as a spare). Oh, and where something is missing e.g. tape drive without tapes. I regularly use my HP-41 or HP-21 at work. The HP-41's don't even attract a second look. The HP-21 usually attracts a few comments though :-) I also Have an HP-42, and a number of other calculators, but I mostly use them at home as I don't have spares.

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #10 Posted by Wayne Brown on 3 July 2000, 6:28 a.m., in response to message #1 by Per Faltman I have an HP-41CX and an HP-16C, and use both at work. (In addition, I enjoy "playing" with my 41.) My 12-year-old son has a 41CV, and my almost-18-year-old son has a 48GX. They both enjoy using their calcs too.

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #11 Posted by Ed on 3 July 2000, 10:00 a.m., in response to message #1 by Per Faltman My 67 and 41CV still see plenty of use! I can program them in my sleep at this point, I love using them, and its a !@##&! shame that HP has gotten away from devices like these. Maybe we will get the 42 back??

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #12 Posted by Kevin FitzGerrell on 3 July 2000, 4:52 p.m., in response to message #1 by Per Faltman I am primarily a calculator user, although I have an old Sharp pocket computer (pc-1250) with it's tape drive/printer just because I thought it neat. I use a HP-48GX and an 11C at work. I've been using HP-41C, 41CX, and 71B at home for programming interfaces to robotics projects and data collection, but I've moved all of that over to the BasicX microprocessor chips, and sold the 41s and 71s.

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #13 Posted by Robert King on 3 July 2000, 7:28 p.m., in response to message #1 by Per Faltman I own two HP calculators - A 28S and a 32SII. Since I'm in (well, to be accurate I'm not anymore since I graduated about a week ago) high school, the 32SII gets used most of the time, and the 28S fairly regularly for more involved math. For simpler math, the 32SII being a handheld (not folding) calculator was always much more convenient, and conventional looking so it drew less attention from other students. I must say that during highschool, I have had quite a few laughs when other students would grab one of the HPs and try to use it, obviously with no success, mistakenly believing that the Enter button performed the same function as =.

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #14 Posted by John Robinson on 3 July 2000, 8:18 p.m., in response to message #1 by Per Faltman My first HP was a 41CV I bought new back in 1983. I still have it, although it's getting a bit unreliable. I have managed to collect a handful of other calcs since, but the 41 still does it for me. I now have a couple of dead CXs that I am restoring with the hope that my children might use them when the time is right - my daughter is 3.5 and my son is 0.5 - how's that for crazy!!

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #15 Posted by John Mosand on 4 July 2000, 11:09 a.m., in response to message #1 by Per Faltman After relying on slide rules since the early 50's, my first meeting with calculators was a Canon (+ - x / no memory)in the early 70's. Then the tiny Sinclairs appeared and I bought the different models as they came on the market. When the first HP41 came - wow - I became caught by RPN overnight! Now I have had a HP48SX since it was introduced. Does everything I need, especially the way it handles complex #'s, which is my special interest. I have given away all my other calcs, and have concentrated on slide rules again. A most fascinating field! Here is my question: how many of you HP-buffs are also interested in slide rules? John

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #16 Posted by William L. Drylie on 4 July 2000, 12:09 p.m., in response to message #15 by John Mosand John, I have used a slide rule since high school, and still use a couple at work on a daily basis, along with my hp calculators that I have purchased over the years. I use a Faber Castell 2/83N Novo Biplex rule, a Foxboro flow calculation rule for steam flow calculations which by the way is much faster than a calculator program, and a valve size rule. My first hp was an hp 25 which I still use and then an hp 67 which I still use daily, and by the way has never been repaired and has never failed me since I purchased it in Dec 1976. I also used an hp34C until it was stolen about a month ago, but I also have an hp 15C and 48SX. The 48SX is where I think I'm going to stop purchasing. The 49G is not appealing to me and the 48SX is all the calculator technology I need. I am proficient in programming each one and can write programs on the fly as I need them while working for repetitive calculations and can sometimes outperform calculators on my 83N slide rule. Each one has a use in certain situations and I care for them as any precision instrument. When I retire, then they will go under glass. Some of my coworkers liken my use of slide rules and old hp calculators at work as entering a battle with a single action sidearm versus automatic weapons, but to their amazement they get the job done! I tell them that one gets proficient with his tools over the years and if the craftsman knows what he is doing, he can turn out beautiful work with them, no matter how old the tools are. Slide rules and hp calculators are some of the finest engineering instruments ever made. Hopefully hp will live up to their new slogan for the engineers of the future and give those who will carry the torch, new and better engineering tools. Cheers, William.

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #17 Posted by john triplett on 9 July 2000, 10:28 a.m., in response to message #15 by John Mosand here here! to previous reply. hey john!--remember me? I have four rules, all of which get seriously played with on a regular basis, a 41cv (practically a cx), a 42s, and a 48gx. i avoided the gx like the plague (until more recently) in favor of my 41cv. it is just so much easier to program than the 48. the 48 is a real pain in the rear. it doesn't even FEEL as a good as a 41. as for the 42, it gets used only around the house as its my only one and my favorite hp. i don't want anything to happen to it. my slide rules are a pickett n803 t, pickett n600 es, hemmi 260l, and a hemmi 149. i have used slide rules for concrete beam design and geotechnical stuff. i use a rule extensively for pile driving. i don't have to worry about shoving my hp in my back pocket and it getting broken. i can use that little pickett to check pile bearings and batters VERY quickly and easily in the field. I don't understand why the n803 isn't more liked than it is; it is a very powerful rule, and does more than a post versalog or a K+E LLDD, which some people think are the end in slide rules.

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #18 Posted by Chuck Ratliff on 4 July 2000, 11:43 p.m., in response to message #1 by Per Faltman I know I'll probably get flamed for this but let's go back to part of the original statement, and link this with the posts some time ago about whether HP is listening, and whether the company will bring out other machines better than or equal to its old flagship models. To restate, I recently went through the undergraduate math sequence through Calc II, and just didn't see HP # anything. I was an HP in a sea of TI's. The last several math classes my two high schoolers took had a singular student with an RPN HP. Through the instructor I offered to help with the learning curve, but before our first meeting she traded the 48 in on a TI, which is the unit pushed heavily in classes, bought in bulk with peripherals by the school systems and peddled by campus bookstores everywhere. Nobody 'teaches' RPN. The vast majority learn button pushing by rote, not problem solving using the math. (Another story). What I'm getting to is I really believe calculating and computing (machines) are soon to merge, and I think Frank or one of the posters stated this also. What could HP possibly be waiting for? Think about the number of students across the country, HS and college. If HP isn't going to really try and get back into this market, who are they going to sell to? Compare the forum in size to the student market. With the ubiquity of PC's, and hand-helds used as data collectors mostly, when the present 'users' (myself included) retire, there will be only 'collectors' unless more science is really done with handhelds by workers who have an real working undersanding of math. Regards to all in this fine forum, and I will be available to accept my flames now.

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #19 Posted by John LaRock on 5 July 2000, 7:12 a.m., in response to message #18 by Chuck Ratliff Chuck, I for one can see no possible way for you to get flamed over a truthful statement like your previous. Having gone through grad school, ah well, several decades ago, and currently working with new undergrads in a work place environment makes one realize how very different learning is. I'm sure that many of us here are probably near the same age, and are engaged in scientific,engineering, technical professions. I for one romanticize my years in college and training, and am extremely proud of knowledge learned through analysis and understanding of processes, not just by "thats the way the instructor explained/or told us to do it!" This is what I meant when I stated previous by rote. No, we did not have the technology nor tools of today, but we did have spectacular tools giving us the means of exploring new areas by reducing the mundane repitition. With our previous tools we needed to understand the principals inorder to write a sequence of key strokes automating the process. I am definitely NOT against our new tools and technologies as these improvements have increased productivity, creativity, and inovation. What I disagree with is some attitudes of not understanding, nor wanting to understand, where and why. This is not a problem with technology, it is a problem with attitude. HP has taken our beloved machines to a new level of expectation. The level of automation of keystrokes has given way to superior methodology in many ways. They have or will shortly merge handhelds to desktop computer capabilities. As an old fart, I never dreamed I would be making systematic measurements over hundreds of square miles using a handheld calculator type machine (GPS storage, control, and reduction). The handheld has capabilites hundreds of times greater than a desktop just a few years ago. I am only limited by gig memory and transmitter/receiver range for differential operation. The same machine can do complex mathematics for reduction of position to millimeter accuracies and have the capabilities of comps for boundaries. However, I can not do simple math with it. I can not imagine though, using my HP-67,(sorry guys even the 41cx and 48's) to resolve hundreds of satellite vectors using least squares. We could for sure explore the matrix size capabilities though. I've rambled on, and have said nothing, long enough. In a nut shell. Bravo to technology and advancement. But individually we need to keep doing "our own thing" to coin a phrase of the past. Now I have caused controversy. Have a great one guys, and be safe. John

Re: Collectors or Users? Message #20 Posted by Menno on 5 July 2000, 8:20 a.m., in response to message #18 by Chuck Ratliff It's difficult.... I must admit that the market for a RPN calculator is thin, and therefore not profitable enough to launch a new calculator. And what should that new baby be capable off? And how should it look like ? In militairy brown as the 42/32's ? Or transparent as the I-Mac? Personally I have the 32SII, 42S and 48GX. the 32 is my workhorse, the 42 for complex quick solving and the 48 I use rarely becouse my desktop can do that calculations as well. The size of the 42/32 is perfect, and the militairy brown gives it also a QUALITY impression just by looking at it. I think that the change that we will see a "43S" is very small indeed. The reason is fear of HP that the new calculator will be old and overcompleet once everybody has a palm-pilot-type unit (with science-pack) in his/her pocket. At that moment in near-future calculator-users will be spread out as thin as slide-rule-users now. I think the HP-48GX is the last of the dinosaurs. Menno

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