HP Forum Archive 02

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hp needs to practice what they preach. Message #1 Posted by William L. Drylie on 3 Jan 2000, 9:11 p.m. After reading the message by Iqbal about receiving an hp49 and being dissapointed by the fact that it looks like a TI calculator was the match that lit the fuse! This weekend I visited TI's calculator web site, and they have a web page with a picture of a TI 59 calculator (1978) with an address of a company that now repairs and sells parts for the old TI calculators, with an apology that they no longer service or sell parts for the older models. Hell!!! they have nothing to apologize for, I purchased a BP1 battery pack for my TI 59 in 1995, and a new math module and packs of mag cards. Try doing that with hp! In fact, go to hp's web site and try to find any mention of their older model calculators!! The owners manual of my hp 25 and hp 67 both say this on the inside of the front cover. "Each of our pocket calculators is precision crafted and designed to solve the problems its owner can expect to encounter through-out a working lifetime" Yes my hp's will probably last a lifetime, with proper care, and the occasional repair, but when I purchased them, I expected to be able to send them whence they were created for the repairs, I paid a higher price for these calculators for that very reason, quality and service. Now, both quality and service seem to be sadly lacking in hp's calculator division. The TI's of yesteryear may have been cheaply made to make them affordable to the masses, but at least they stood behind their product a lot longer than anyone else did! And yes, we need another calculator like the 42s, not everyone needs or wants a graphing calculator. I agree with Iqbal I think the hp49 is a TI knock-off.

Re: hp needs to practice what they preach. Message #2 Posted by Dave on 3 Jan 2000, 9:28 p.m., in response to message #1 by William L. Drylie "I purchased a BP1 battery pack for my TI 59 in 1995, and a new math module and packs of mag cards. Try doing that with hp!" Batteries, mag cards and many accessories for HP's earliest models were available in 1995.

Re: hp needs to practice what they preach. Message #3 Posted by William L. Drylie on 4 Jan 2000, 8:33 p.m., in response to message #2 by Dave Dear Dave: I have a letter from hp in November 1989, informing me that battery packs, chargers, manuals, and cases for the hp67 and including service are no longer available from hp. However, mag cards, and a few application pacs for the 97 which could be used, are on hand, probably for a limited time. William Drylie

Re: hp needs to practice what they preach. Message #4 Posted by Dave on 4 Jan 2000, 11:05 p.m., in response to message #3 by William L. Drylie Nonetheless, batteries and chargers all the way back to the 35 as well as some cases, manuals, and applications pacs were still in stock at dealers like EduCalc and ElekTek in 1995. When EduCalc had their going out of business blow out recently, a lot of this stuff could be had dirt-cheap. If people kept buying them, they might have stuck around even longer.

Re: hp needs to practice what they preach. Message #5 Posted by Keith Dicks on 5 Jan 2000, 4:15 a.m., in response to message #4 by Dave One of the reasons EduCalc went out of business was the fact that HP was underselling them via hi-street stores that did not provide the support (and hence could indercut EduCalc's prices). OK, so HP sold a few more calculators, but the support and backup went out of the window.

Re: hp needs to practice what they preach. Message #6 Posted by Dave on 5 Jan 2000, 2:55 p.m., in response to message #5 by Keith Dicks Yes, these days it seems that most consumers shop around for the cheapest price and then worry about support and service later or never.

Re: hp needs to practice what they preach. Message #7 Posted by Frank Rizzo on 6 Jan 2000, 11:35 a.m., in response to message #6 by Dave Well, yes, this is particularly true in calculators. Calculators are so cheap today, that it's idiotic to "service" them. If one breaks, the manufacturer usually just gives a new unit because it's less expensive than fixing the old one. Also calculators have become "disposible" like ball point pens or razors. If you break it or lose it, so what? Go to the drug store and buy another one for $3.99. Maybe customers don't expect good service from an inexpensive piece of equipment?

Re: hp needs to practice what they preach. Message #8 Posted by Tom Peddle on 4 Jan 2000, 9:32 a.m., in response to message #1 by William L. Drylie Yes indeed. Inside the HP67 Owners Handbook it says: ' "The success and prosperity or our company will be assured only if we offer our customers superior products that fill real needs and provide lasting value, and that are supported by a wide variety of useful services, both before and after sale." Statement of Corporate Objectives. Hewlett-Packard. ' Have HP still got this as a Corporate Objective? It may be a tall order to support products that are over 20 years old but from my recent experience with HP there is no support for recently deleted products and very little for new ones. HP: Stop resting on your laurels because otherwise you will soon have to earn them again.

Re: hp needs to practice what they preach. Message #9 Posted by Frank Rizzo on 4 Jan 2000, 1:44 p.m., in response to message #8 by Tom Peddle Tom- Obviously, the definitions of "superior products", "real needs", "lasting value", and "wide variety of useful services" have changed. Maybe the execs have been listening to Clinton too long? Frank

Re: Fuel to the fire Message #10 Posted by Ulf Hallmann on 5 Jan 2000, 5:33 p.m., in response to message #9 by Frank Rizzo I guess that most parties involved in this ongoing discussion are US citizens. Most of the people in the rest of the world watch with great concern the "culture" of Corporate America and its 'Shareholder Value' principles which emerge as just another lip service (why bother about yesterday's promises, vision and mission statements if you can provide short term value). I just bought a 27 year old reel-to-reel tape recorder from a well known Swiss-German manufacturer. Although the manufacturer went through ups and downs, I can still purchase original spares. When I innocently asked whether the original service manual is still available, the answer was 'yes, why not?'

Re: Fuel to the fire Message #11 Posted by Reinhard Hawel on 8 Jan 2000, 10:17 a.m., in response to message #10 by Ulf Hallmann This is obviously Studer-Revox. Yes, they surely have similar service conditions, like HP had abt. 10-15 years ago.

Re: Fuel to the fire Message #12 Posted by Ulf Hallmann on 8 Jan 2000, 3:30 p.m., in response to message #11 by Reinhard Hawel Bingo. The tape recorder in question is an A700.

An example of a company which stands behind its products Message #13 Posted by Reinhard Hawel on 8 Jan 2000, 4:54 p.m., in response to message #9 by Frank Rizzo I've recently found a company which guarantees service and spare parts for 30 years minimum and does have parts for some of their oldes products. The company's 131 years old. Curious ? Look into www.iwc.ch or http://www.iwc.ch/english/empfang/betriebsrundgang13.html A bad comparison? I don't think. Some of the HP products we collect were produced about 20 years ago and may have cost the same as a cheap IWC watch when they were new. No, I'm not affiliated with IWC. Other good watch companies may (and will) have a similar service policy. I don't even have an IWC watch (though I'd like to own one). Anywa, I'm a lucky guy, because I own a HP-01 with all the accessories.

Re: An example of a company which stands behind its products Message #14 Posted by Dave Hicks on 8 Jan 2000, 6:46 p.m., in response to message #13 by Reinhard Hawel IWC was one of the companies that almost died when quartz watches came out, but lately some good marketing has convinced a small fraction of the watch-buying public to buy very expensive, not-so-accurate watches made in the traditional way. I'm not sure the world is ready for hand-made calculators with only the finest discrete components and hand-decorated circuit boards at prices higher than most people pay for their homes. However, if you could convince people to buy them, then putting transistors in a vault for repairs would definitely add to the mystique.

Re: An example of a company which stands behind its products Message #15 Posted by Reinhard Hawel on 9 Jan 2000, 12:43 a.m., in response to message #14 by Dave Hicks I always wanted to build my own calculator (seriously, maybe a HP 10 series clone?), but because of the expected volume it would be very likely, that it would be a hand-built solution. No, I wouldn't take too much transistors, but it's rather sure, that you have to keep a considerable stock of parts in the electronics business. I guess it would be really hard getting an i486 or a Pentium 60 today, same with the microcontroller I'd use for building a calculator. What I really wanted to point out, was that in example a HP 9100 has surely cost as much (or more) as an IWC in the late 60s. I must admit, that the comparison was strange somehow, but why don't give them an example which is a real challenge. 30 years would be a little much, but I wonder what the HP guys do with their spare parts when the 5 years servicing period is over. Do they throw them away? Especially the availability of the battery packs could get a problem. I even thought about producing some of them, but making a form for producing them is extremely expensive, so that this would be a commercial project with a surely bad (for me) end. Unfortunately I can't afford that just for fun, maybe I'm into the business, when some crazy guys begin bidding $100 or more for a simple battery pack :-) The next interesting question is what they do with the measurement equipment. Do they end service for a device that cost $100,000 five years after end of production ? I doubt that. There is a number of installations, that rely on HP calculators or now, Win CE machines. Such things can be a real problem for commercial users or can get rather expensive to replace. Think of a HP 85 with a measurement system - any hardware change would cause an immediate replacement of all the software - A new and costly project for replacing a machine where a simple chip or transistor could be dead. Maybe this is the chance for technically skilled collectors to earn some money from the large companies :-) Generally engineers don't want to change working systems, even if they are working for 20 years or more. When the developers don't work for the company anymore, this could be even dangerous ! I wouldn't expect a 30 year service for the HP calcs, but 10 years would be ok, maybe with smootly rising prices every year to cover the expenses of keeping the parts on stock, keeping _qualified_ personell (the guys, who find all these things, if somebody wants it), ... Not to deliver spares after a certain time is a rather bad policy, unimportant, which field of business we look at.

Re: An example of a company which stands behind its products Message #16 Posted by Dave Hicks on 9 Jan 2000, 2:18 p.m., in response to message #15 by Reinhard Hawel "What I really wanted to point out, was that in example a HP 9100 has surely cost as much (or more) as an IWC in the late 60s. " Yes but now compare the price of a modern HP calculator to a modern IWC watch. There are many more people who will chose to have products repaired when the repair costs less than the new product. Because high-end watch prices go up, it makes sense to repair for a very long time. Many electronic products cost more to repair than to replace even when they are new. After a few years, the repair becomes even less attractive. "but I wonder what the HP guys do with their spare parts when the 5 years servicing period is over. Do they throw them away? " If they planned well, they would run out of parts at about the time they planned to stop supporting the product. "Especially the availability of the battery packs could get a problem." Some HP battery packs were available for about 25 years. I stocked up on packs a few years ago and will install new batteries in the packs when these die.

Re: An example of a company which stands behind its products Message #17 Posted by John Robinson on 14 Jan 2000, 2:54 a.m., in response to message #16 by Dave Hicks Here's my two cents worth : I think it's unrealistic for most companies to support their products for 30 years, but I would like to see companies like HP make a commitment to their customers, whereby if a product is no longer supported, then ALL documentation on the product is made publically available. So for HP calcs that would be circuit diagrams, software listing etc. etc. In general (and I know I'm dreaming), I would also like to see any company that closes, also make all technical information about it's products publically available, ideally all operating companies could put all product information in some for of escrow just in case they close their doors, in which case the information becomes public. Am I expecting too much here ? Cheers, John

Re: An example of a company which stands behind its products Message #18 Posted by Bert on 15 Jan 2000, 4:59 p.m., in response to message #17 by John Robinson I think you're expecting too much, even though I agree with you. By making all technical information about it's products publically available a company would throw away a lot of research & development money. Bert

Re: An example of a company which stands behind its products Message #19 Posted by Joe on 1 Feb 2000, 11:55 a.m., in response to message #15 by Reinhard Hawel Reinhard said: "but I wonder what the HP guys do with their spare parts when the 5 years servicing period is over. Do they throw them away?" No, they sold the HP 41 parts to TSA. TSA was servicing HP calculators till they ran out of parts but their prices were rediculous. For example, $200 to rebuild a HP 9825 tape drive feed wheel. Especially the availability of the battery packs could get a problem. "I even thought about producing some of them, but making a form for producing them is extremely expensive, so that this would be a commercial project with a surely bad (for me) end." There was some discussion between HP and EduCalc about HP giving the battery shell molds to EduCalc but new bosses took over within HP and nothing came of it. Later HP moved everything to Singapore. They lost track of the molds and no one knows what became of them. In other words, they were probably sold for scrap metal. :-( "Unfortunately I can't afford that just for fun, maybe I'm into the business, when some crazy guys begin bidding $100 or more for a simple battery pack :-) " IF there were enough demand then it would be cost effective to make new molds and produce new batteries but let's face it, you have to sell thousands of batteries just to break even on the costs and there's simply not enough demand. Joe

agreed Message #20 Posted by m currie on 4 Jan 2000, 10:36 p.m., in response to message #8 by Tom Peddle A huge company like HP could easily, at a minimum, offer documentary support for its older products on its ftp site. Check out Epson and IBM sometime. They continue to support stuff that you can find by the side of the road!

Re: hp needs to practice what they preach. Message #21 Posted by r.j. bied on 4 Jan 2000, 10:14 a.m., in response to message #1 by William L. Drylie I have been an avid HP user since 1975. I have difficulty using a non RPN calculator. I am also disappointed with the recent offerings of the HP calculator division. I think they are forgetting about the masses which grew up with RPN machines. I recently picked up an HP Jornada and was not very impressed with the calculator function. Perhaps HP executives should visit e-Bay and see what HP11C and HP15C used machines are selling for! I am not looking forward to the day when my 11C gives out! What will I replace it with? HP does not have an offering. We can only hope the recent HP commercials showing the HP garage with promises to return to the roots, have some merit. regards, Robert

Re: hp needs to practice what they preach. Message #22 Posted by Steve on 4 Jan 2000, 7:41 p.m., in response to message #21 by r.j. bied I don't think HP needs to support calculators like the HP41 and HP67 and HP21 and HP35 any more. They have (had) a policy of offering support for 5 years after a product was discontinued, and then offered repairs where parts were still available. With many of their products they were caught by having designed and built products that were so damn good that they lasted well beyond the life that HP had allowed for servicing. It is possible that the "long life" is partly due to the fact that HP was the only manufacturer with a really strong RPN offering, and this both gained them a devoted following, and lost them the vast bulk of the market. But I have to agree that HP has (at least) fumbled the ball ever since the release of HP42. There's been nothing since then that combines the power and ease of use of these calculators. The later series (whilst very nice) are either much more limited, or soooo damn hard to program that the average person (even the average engineer!!!) is unlikely to be able to _really_ come to grips with them. Whilst there are problems with the old (HP41) approach to programming, it sure is a damn sight easier to actually get the job done.

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